19_22_августа_1991_года

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From: any@jumbo.hq.demos.su (Anna Treger)

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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 16:08:16 -0500

Subject: Новости из Петербурга

Новости с Исаакиевской площади

Около 16:00 на площади перед горсоветом состоялся митинг. Присутствовало 10-20 тыс. человек (из толпы трудно определить точнее). Одновременно проходила сессия Ленсовета и была прямая трансляция на площадь.

Из Москвы приехал и выступил на сессии А.А. Собчак. Он сообщил, что

встречался с новоорганизованным "Ленинградским Комитетом ..." и напомнил им о Нюрнбергском процессе и т.п. Об их реакции не сообщил. Призвал поддержать обращение Ельцина о бессрочной политической стачке.

Сообщил, что по крайней мере Щербаков и Яров узнали о своем участии в "Комитете ..." только сегодня, из сообщения Ком. ЛЕНВО ген.-пол. Самсонова по ТВ.

Также на сессии выступил начальник ГУВД Крамарев. Он сообщил, что милиция города подчиняется Горсовету, равно как и ОМОН: "... ОМОН у нас свой..." - сказал он, чем вызвал бурную реакцию на площади.

Обстановка в городе нормальная, ни военной техники ни патрулирования нет (по крайней мере пока). Исаакиевская площадь была блокирована баррикадами и транспортом, но затем были сделаны проезды для транспорта.

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INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY

INTERFAX NEWS

August 19, 1991, Issue 6

MOVEMENT FOR DEMOCRATIC REFORMS ISSUES A STATEMENT

The Movement for Democratic Reforms in the USSR has described Monday's developments as a national tragedy, as an unconstitutional coup d'etat. No one knows what happened to the President, the movement pointed out. "If he is ill and incapable of performing his functions, this should have been announced in a statement signed by doctors. If the President was involved to some extent in what happened and knew about the conspiracy, he will have to answer for it, since he pledged to protect the constitution and must do so," declared the Movement for Democratic Reforms.

"Those who launched the coup make a mistake if they think that the army and law-enforcers will act against their brothers and sisters, against their fathers and mothers. We are confident that most of them will refuse to engage in outrages against their own people or turn into an intrument of terror", the statement declares.

The consequences of this adventure will be a sharp aggravation of tensions and speedier slide toward civil war, toward bloodshed.

According to the movement, its council held a conference on Saturday and drafted an appeal to the countrymen in which it wanted to warn the people and the country against the threat of a coup. "Unfortunately the document failed to be published for technical reasons, and developments overtook us", said the authors of the appeal.

The Movement for Democratic Reforms resolutely condemned the illegal seizure of power in the country by the people who should have stood on guard of the constitution. It expressed confidence that "the democratic forces of our Motherland, all those who abhor a relapse into totalitarianism, dictatorship and terror, will oppose the unconstitutional actions of impostors who call themselves "the country's leadership".

Russia's parliament.

According to a policeman in the cordon, the crowd numbers 15 to 20 hundred people. However IF's correspondent believes that it contains no less than 10,000 people, and continues to grow.

Tanks moved several hundred meters away from the parliament building, but armoured vehicles stand on the bridge facing it.

3 vehicles with riot police (OMON) came up to Entrance 8 which leads to the building's Big Conference Hall. At the same time, according to IF's correspondent, a considerable number of people who had gathered at the opposite side of the building rushed to the entrance in question. They are trying to build a barricade.

SPOKESMEN FOR THE SEC WERE PREVENTED FROM ENTERING THE LENINGRAD CITY COUNCIL

The Leningrad city council intends to gather for an emergency session on Monday at 16:00 to discuss the situation in the country. The session is to be held by the chairman of the city council Alexander Beliayev.

Monday morning spokesmen for the SEC arrived at the Leningrad city council. They declared that the city council should be dissolved, that it has no right to hold a session and that they intend to stop it. City council members turned the SEC spokesmen out by force.

City council officials are trying to find out where Leningrad's mayor Sobchak and deputy mayor Scherbakov are.

THE PRESIDIUM OF THE MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL IS DRAFTING A STATEMENT CONDEMNING THE FORMING OF THE STATE-OF-EMERGENCY COMMITTEE

The presidium of the Moscow city council is drafting a

statement in connection with the forming of the State-ofEmergency Committee. Its member Gaik Zulumian told IF that the statement will denounce the forming of the SEC and proclaim its actions as illegal.

The statement is to be adopted after 19:00 today.

The presidium session was attended by Colonel Shtokolov, commandant of Moscow, and by an official from the Moscow department of the KGB. The commandant declared that his office is concerned solely about the ways to keep servicemen under control.

Contacts with the military will be maintained by the city council's commission on military affairs led by Yuri Shurygin. According to Gaik Zulumian, at Monday's session of the Moscow city council the Acting Mayor Yuri Luzhkov declared that he views the activity of the SEC as illegal. All municipal services, Luzhkov said, will continue to perform their functions.

The Moscow city council intended to gather the heads of

district councils for a meeting at 15:00 to discuss the ways to coordinate their actions under the circumstances.

KYRGHYZSTAN'S PRESIDENT APPEALS TO THE PEOPLE

On Monday the President of Kyrghyzstan Askar Akayev addressed the people of his republic in connection with the forming of the SEC and imposition of a state of emergency in several areas of the USSR.

As the President of Kyrghyzstan, said Askar Akayev,

elected in accordance with the republic's constitution and performing his functions basing on the declaration of sovereignty, he addresses the people of Kyrghyzstan prompted by anxiety and concern.

Nevertheless the President of Kyrghyzstan said he hoped that democracy and common sense will triumph. He will do all he can to protect his republic's sovereignty and ensure public order and lawfulness, he said. A.Akayev urged the people of Kyrghyzstan to display calm, wisdom, common sense, unity and respect for the constitution and laws of the USSR and Kyrghyzstan. A.Akayev pointed to the need for the people to continue to work in a quiet and businesslike atmosphere and ensure order and discipline.

"State power in our republic functions in the name of the people, in the interests of the people", the President said in his address. He will continue to pursue a policy aimed at strengthening civic peace, heightening national accord and raising living standards, said Askar Akayev.

INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57

LEONID BELOPILSKY leo@interfax.msk.su

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INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY AND BALTIC NEWS SERVICE

BALTFAX

August 19, 1991 17:30

ANATOLIJS GORBUNOVS: "THE APPROACHES TO RIGA HAVE BEEN BLOCKED BY THE MILITARY"

Chairman of the Latvian Supreme Council Anatolijs Gorbunovs has issued a statement on behalf of the Latvian Supreme Council and the government. It says: "On August 18 night a coup d'etat took place in the Soviet Union, President Mikhail Gorbachev has been removed from power and the unconstitutionally created State of Emergency Committee has taken over".

The Presidium of the Supreme Council and the Council of Ministers of Latvia "consider the State of Emergency Committee an illegal body without any authorities on the Latvian territory". The Latvian leader notes that the state of emergency can be imposed in Latvia only with consent of the Latvian parliament or its Presidium. In this connection, the Presidium of the Latvian Supreme Council points out that the situation in the republic remains calm and there are no grounds to declare the state of emergency. The parliament, the government and local self-government bodies are controlling the situation and continue to perform their functions.

"In case some external forces try to give power to illegal formations, the parliament and the government of Latvia urge Latvian citizens to remain calm and orderly, not to cooperate with illegal ruling bodies, to join the nonviolent campaign for civil and personal disobedience and to demand the restoration of the legal government", Mr.Gorbunovs

points out.

* * * According to the Latvian State Security Department, the approaches to Riga have been blocked by Army units. BF's correspondent reports that military helicopters have been flying over Riga for two hours.

THE ESTONIAN GOVERNMENT ISSUED A STATEMENT

On August 19 the Estonian government made public a statement describing recent events in the Soviet Union as "a coup". The Estonian government supports the call of the Russian Federation President Boris Yeltsin for a general political strike and disobedience to orders of the State of Emergency Committee. The government has urged the Estonian population to be ready to launch a political strike.

* * *According to the Estonian radio, two aircraft carrying paratroopers arrived in the Tallinn airport.

INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57

LEONID BELOPILSKY leo@interfax.msk.su

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INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY August 19, 1991

INTERFAX NEWS

August 19, 1991 16:00 EXPRESS NEWS

UNAUTHORISED RALLY OUTSIDE MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL

There has been a spontaneous rally outside the building of the Moscow City Council this morning in support of demands for a national strike and civil defiance campaign against the newly-formed emergency state committee.

Some 400 protesters blocked passage to four armoured vehicles on their way to Moscow's Kremlin forcing them to turn back.

YAKUTIA WANTS EMERGENCY STATE CONFIRMED BY PARLIAMENT

The deputy leader of Yakutia's parliament in Irkutsk Vassili Vlasov says his republic won't take any measures to comply with resolutions by the government emergency state committee because of legal uncertainties about its status and functions.

In an interview with Interfax news agency,he said the resolution by vice-president Gennadii Yanaev on imposing a state of emergency must be reaffirmed by the central parliament.

Mr Vlasov said Yakutia's Supreme Soviet was preserving its structures and methods of work in line with the republic's constitution. He said the decision had been coordinated with the leader of the Yakutian parliament Mikhail Nikolayev who

left for Moscow on Sunday for the signing ceremony of a new Union treaty and is now in the Soviet capital.

YELTSIN SPEAKS TO DEMONSTRATORS OUTSIDE RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT

President Boris Yeltsin of Russia is reported to have walked out of the building of Russian parliament to address a crowd of demonstrators. An IF correspondent said Mr Yeltsin had again condemned the emergency state committee's unconstitutional actions calling for a national defiance campaign.

PARTY CHIEF IN FAR EAST APPROVES THE STATE OF EMERGENCY

The leader of a regional party committee in the Soviet Union's Pacific Territory(part of the Russian communist party) Vladimir Zorin says he is being supportive of the assessments by the emergency state committee broadcast on national radio. In an interview with Interfax news agency he said the country was near-collapse, and that unity by all healthy forces was needed to resolve the crying issues rather than rallies or rhetoric.

EXPRESS NEWS

Mr Zorin spelt out support for concrete actions to try to resolve the main issues such as the continuance of the Soviet Union as one multi-national state and enforcing discipline in the workplace.

He called for "a wholesale war on the shadow economy and organised crime".

Mr Zorin said the regional party committee was not taking any concrete action yet. In his words," the people want to know more about the documents to be published tomorrow".

GEORGIAN LEADERS ON EMERGENCY STATE

In a brief statement on the declaration of a state of

emergency in the Soviet Union, the Georgian president, parliament and cabinet have called on Georgians for calm and normal work without yielding to provocations. The Georgian leadership described the events on Monday as " a total surprise".

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BALTFAX

August 19, 1991 16:00

* * *

VYTAUTAS LANDSBERGIS ISSUED AN APPEAL TO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY

Chairman of the Lithuanian Supreme Council Vytautas Landsbergis has issued the "Appeal to peoples of the world, governments of free countries, the U.N. and other international organizations". It points out that "people's life and public order in Lithuania are under serious threat". The Appeal urges the international community to help "the legal, popularly-elected Lithuanian government which defends lawfulness and stability in the republic". Mr.Landsbergis describes possible imposition of the state of emergency in Lithuania as a "hitlerite-stalinist plot" and expresses hope that "Western countries will not be tolerant".

GEDIMINAS VAGNORIUS: "LITHUANIAN GOVERNMENT WILL CONTINUE TO PERFORM ITS FUNCTIONS"

Lithuanian Prime Minister Gediminas Vagnorius has issued an appeal to Lithuanian citizens urging them to adhere to laws of the Lithuanian Republic despite recent events in the Soviet Union. The appeal emphasizes that the Lithuanian government will continue to perform its functions. "If the government is barred from ruling the republic, all self-government bodies in Lithuania must stop their activities", the appeal stresses. It also calls on Lithuanian citizens not to organize any actions which could distabilize the situation in the republic.

AN APPEAL OF "SAJUDIS" TO LITHUANIAN CITIZENS

The "Sajudis" movement has urged Lithuanian citizens "to be ready to stand up for our freedom, independence and democracy". It calls for a general political strike in case of an attempt to topple the popularly-elected parliament and government of Lithuania".

ANATOLIJS GORBUNOVS ON RECENT EVENTS IN THE USSR

In a statement on the Latvian radio, Chairman of the Latvian Supreme Council Anatolijs Gorbunovs said that "a coup d'etat has taken place in the Soviet Union". He pointed out that Resolution 1 of the State of Emergency Committee "does not apply to Latvia". Mr.Gorbunovs urged Latvian citizens "not to cooperate with the State of Emergency Committee" and to remain calm.

BF's correspondent reports from Riga that the Latvian parliament is holding a plenary meeting. He says the situation in the republic is calm.

LATVIAN COMMUNIST LEADER: "THE STATE OF EMERGENCY WILL BE IMPOSED IN lATVIA"

At a press-conference in Riga August 19 the first secretary of the Latvian Communist Party Alfred Rubiks said that Latvia is one of the regions where the state of emergency will be imposed. Currently, the State of Emergency Commission is being formed in Latvia. The Commander of the Baltic Military District Fedor Kuzmin has been appointed its head.

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INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY

EXPRESS

AUGUST l9, l99l 12:30

LEADERSHIP OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION APPEALS TO CITIZENS USSR INTERIOR MINISTRY RESTORES VERTICAL LAW-ENFORCEMENT STRUCTURES

YELTSYN FAILED TO CONTACT GORBACHEV

AT THE OFFICE OF THE MOSCOW MILITARY COMMANDANT COMMANDER OF LENINGRAD MILITARY DISTRICT APPEARS ON TV

* * *

LEADERSHIP OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION APPEALS TO CITIZENS The President of Russia Boris Yeltsyn, the acting

chairman of the Russian Supreme Soviet Ruslan Khasbulatov and Prime-Minister Ivan Silayev have declared that the legitimate President of the USSR was dismissed on the night of August l8, l990.

In an appeal to the citizens of Russia this is described as "a right-wing, reactionary, anti-constitutional coup".

They note that there were attempts of an overthrow before.

Yeltsyn, Silayev and Khasbulatov said that the use of force in governing the country is unacceptable. "This discredits the USSR in the face of the whole world, undermines our prestige in the international community and returns us to the cold war epoch and the isolation of the Soviet Union from the world community," the appeal says.

The three leaders declared "the so-called committee that came to power" as well as all its decisions illegal.

They expressed assurance that local government bodies will strictly observe the constitutional laws and decrees of the president of the Russian Federation.

They called for giving President Gorbachev a chance to address the nation as well as immediately convening an extraordinary Congress of USSR People's Deputies.

"We call for a general strike without a time limit till

these demands are fulfilled", the document says.

USSR INTERIOR MINISTRY RESTORES VERTICAL LAW-ENFORCEMENT STRUCTURES

In reply to a question from IF's reporter about steps taken by the USSR Interior Ministry following the decisions of the political leadership of the country on the introduction of a state of emergency in a number of regions, the head of the ministry's public relations center Andrei Chernenko said that at the moment the ministry is concentrating its attention on the state of public order.

At a working conference Interior Minister Pugo emphasised the necessity of strengthening the defence of the civic interests of the population irrespective of the place of their residence, nationality and social standing.

The restoration of the vertical structure of lawenforcement bodies was described as the necessary measure for the implementation of this program. Appropriate information is submitted to the regional Interior Ministries.

NOTE

On August l9 IF will be issuing urgent newsletters

instead of regular bulletins.

YELTSYN FAILED TO CONTACT GORBACHEV

Speaking at a Moscow news conference on Monday the Russian President Boris Yeltsyn declared that the Ukraine and some other republics which he managed to contact share the opinion of the Russian leadership about the developments in the country. According to Yeltsyn, he failed to contact Gorbachev. All means of communication, the Russian President declared, are controlled by "the putschists". He also said that in response to Order Number One announced on radio today the Russian President is going to issue a decree on disobedience to the order. The Russian government, Yeltsyn said, will continue its work.

The news conference was also attended by Prime-Minister

Ivan Silayev and Vice-President Alexander Rutskoi.

AT THE OFFICE OF THE MOSCOW MILITARY COMMANDANT

IF's reporter was informed by the office of the Moscow

military commandant that no orders have been received on changing its functioning order. It was also said that today such an order is not expected.

COMMANDER OF LENINGRAD MILITARY DISTRICT APPEARS ON TV

At l0:00 a.m. the commander of the Leningrad military

district Colonel-General Victor Samsonov appeared on local radio and television. He said that the he has been appointed the commandant of Leningrad and the surrounding area by the State committee for the state of emergency. He announced that since 4 a.m. on August l9 a state of energency and curfew were introduced in the region. Strikes, rallies, demonstrations and processions are banned. The activities of political parties hindering the normalization of the situation and sabotaging the decisions of the committee will be banned.

Samsonov said that strict control over the media is introduced, some of them might even be closed. Besides, no one will not be allowed to quit jobs of one's own free will. He also said that the staffs of the organizations that will be

closed under orders from the commandant will be forcefully employed "at factories, plants and farms".

According to Samsonov, the committee for the state of emergency for the Leningrad region will include the leader of the regional committee of the CPSU Boris Gidaspov, the vicemayor of Leningrad Vyacheslav Shcherbakov, the chairman of the Leningrad regional council Yuri Yarov and be presided by Samsonov himself.

The Mayor of Leningrad Anatoli Sobchak is absent from the city.

According to unconfirmed reports, a full-scale meeting of the Central Committee of the CPSU is due today on August l9. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX BALTFAX

August 19, 1991, 12:50

FOR SUBSCRIBERS' ATTENTION:

Today IF will release express news only.

IN TALLINN THE SPECIAL DEFENCE COUNCIL HELD A SESSION. ESTONIAN AUTHORITIES REAFFIRM THEIR POLICY OF RESTORING INDEPENDENCE BY PEACEFUL MEANS

Estonia's interim defence council held a session in Tallinn on Monday. The session was chaired by the head of Estonia's parliament Arnold Ruutel. The council urged the population, local government bodies as well as state and public structures to display calm and fortitude.

Vladimir Vinogradov, secretary of the coordinating

council of the Estonian intermovement told BF that his movement supports the USSR leaders' appeal to the Soviet people. "All this is happening in the interests of the working people", V.Vinogradov stressed.

VYTAUTAS LANDSBERGIS ON THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS IN THE USSR

Speaking on local radio Monday morning, the head of Lithuania's parliament Vytautas Landsbergis declared that the people of Lithuania "will not collaborate with the puppet authorities should such be installed in their republic". "Martial law might be imposed in Lithuania on Monday", he said. "If military commandants impose their power, try to avoid casualties", V.Landsbergis pointed out. Lithuania's President Vytautas Landsbergis urged the people to gather in front of the parliament building.

The presidium of Lithuania's parliament is convening for an urgent session. MPs are recalled from their vacations.

BF's correspondent reports from Vilnius that independent

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INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY

INTERFAX NEWS

August 19, 1991, 14:50

THE UKRAINE TOOK A STAND SIMILAR TO THAT OF THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP, SAID BORIS YELTSIN

Russia's President Boris Yeltsin has told newsmen that the Russian leadership succeeded neither in broadcasting nor in telecasting its appeal. Areas in Russia are receiving the appeal over telephone.

Yeltsin called upon the leaders of all countries to condemn the coup.

According to Russia's President, the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament Leonid Kravchuk told him that the presidium of the Ukrainian parliament took a stand similar to that of the Russian leadership. It decided not to submit to the orders issued by the State-of-Emergency Committee (SEC).

The acting chairman of Russia's parliament Ruslan

Khasbulatov told newsmen that the presidium of Russia's parliament held an urgent conference and decided to convene the parliament for an emergency session on Wednesday to discuss the political situation in the Russian Federation.

The representatives of constituent republics and

autonomous regions authorized to sign union treaty are now in Moscow, said R.Khasbulatov.

The building of Russia's parliament has been surrounded by tanks, said Russia's prime minister Ivan Silayev.

Answering newsmen's questions Boris Yeltsin said that

today he was prevented from entering the Kremlin where he was going to meet with G.Yanayev. Later Yeltsin managed to get in

touch with Yanayev who told him that Gorbachev could no longer perform the functions of president.

His attempts to get in touch with Gorbachev ended in failure, said B.Yeltsin. "If Gorbachev is alive and still there (at the presidential villa in the Crimea), he is blocked", said Russia's President. He spoke with Gorbachev for the last time last Friday, said Yeltsin. According to him, "on Friday Gorbachev was safe and sound", and intended to hold an important conference on August 21.

YELTSIN ISSUED A DECREE DENYING RECOGNITION TO THE STATE-OFEMERGENCY COMMITTEE

Russia's President Boris Yeltsin signed a decree which proclaims the State-of-Emergency Committee as unconstitutional and qualifies its actions as treason.

The decree proclaims all orders issued by the SEC as illegal and null and void in the territory of Russia. The lawful authorities in the territory of Russia continue to function, said Yeltsin.

"The activity of persons who comply with the orders of the SEC will be qualified in accordance with the criminal code of the Russian Federation and subjected to legal proceedings", the decree says.

The decree came into force as soon as it was signed.

THE LEADERS OF THE STATE-OF-EMERGENCY COMMITTEE WILL GIVE A NEWS CONFERENCE

Members of the State-of-Emergency Committee G.Yanayev, V.Pavlov and O.Baklanov will give a news conference at the press center of the USSR foreign ministry at 17:00 today.

MOVEMENT FOR DEMOCRATIC REFORMS GIVES A PRESS CONFERENCE

The Movement for Democratic Reforms gives a press conference at 15:00 today at the building of the Soviet Foreign Policy Association, 10, Elizarova St. It will release a statement.

Telephone numbers for contacts: 975-21-67, 297-78-35, 299-15-12.

INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57

LEONID BELOPILSKY leo@interfax.msk.su

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From: leo@interfax.msk.su (Leonid Belopilsky)

tense and critical hour for the whole country Armenians should demonstrate the staunchness and restraint inherent in them, manifest labor discipline and not give in to provocations".

The statement stresses that the presidiums are constantly

following the developments in the country's leadership and will react accordingly.

GROUP FOR STATE OF EMERGENCY SET UP IN KAMCHATKA

On August l9 a session of the Kamchatka regional executive committee attended by the heads of its key departments, members of the presidium of the regional council, and media representatives formed a group for the state of emergency.

The aim of the group will be to respond to the developments in the region, work out and approve possible decisions. The group is led by the vice-chairman of the regional council Albert Usov.

INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57

LEONID BELOPILSKY leo@interfax.msk.su

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!ariel.unm.edu!nmsu!opus!ataylor From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Ouster of Gorbachev

Message-ID: <ATAYLOR.91Aug19113404@karnaugh.nmsu.edu>

Date: 19 Aug 91 17:34:04 GMT

References: <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us>

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In-reply-to: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us's message of 19 Aug 91 10:46:31 GMT

In article <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

>Another question: who are these troops manning the tanks rolling into

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!nucsrl!ddsw1!learn From: learn@ddsw1.MCS.COM (William Vajk)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: COMMUNISM

Message-ID: <1991Aug18.030544.26049@ddsw1.MCS.COM>

Date: 18 Aug 91 03:05:44 GMT

References: <3119@calmasd.Prime.COM> <1991Aug13.004731.29679@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <5949@micro-ix.UUCP> Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization

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In article <5949@micro-ix.UUCP> alex@micro-ix.UUCP (alex) writes:

>In article <1991Aug13.004731.29679@ddsw1.MCS.COM> William Vajk writes:

>> Communism itself isn't an evil wicked political theory.

>It is hard to mathematically prove the opposite.

I have yet to see a thorough mathematical model for any political system.

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From: learn@ddsw1.MCS.COM (William Vajk)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: COMMUNISM

Message-ID: <1991Aug18.212240.24373@ddsw1.MCS.COM>

Date: 18 Aug 91 21:22:40 GMT

References: <5945@micro-ix.UUCP> <1991Aug13.005542.29928@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <1991Aug14.092311.27287@Veritas.COM> Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization

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In article <1991Aug14.092311.27287@Veritas.COM> Oleg Kiselev writes:

>In article <1991Aug13.005542.29928@ddsw1.MCS.COM> William Vajk writes:

>> [Attribution lost]

interests before their own.

Helping others can be very much a survival tactic, I agree. But we are at odds on very basic definitions of words here, and I quite charitably suggest you refer to a reasonable dictionary.

>You may be confusing altruism with self-denial and sacrifice.

Self-denial and sacrifice are party to altrusim, even if not directly

obvious. The energies expended on behalf of others could, at the very least, be used to advance one's own interests. Thus in at least a second-hand mode, all altruistic activity results in some form of self-denial or sacrifice.

I do believe we're quibbling about definitions, however. I do think it is

an interesting exercise in the light of the particular political arena we're discussing, as in my view, true socialism requires lots and lots of altruism, and perhaps that's a big contributor to large model failures.

Bill Vajk

Message-ID: <15354@ulysses.att.com>

Date: 19 Aug 91 17:56:23 GMT

References: <1991Aug19.124717.26989@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>

Sender: netnews@ulysses.att.com

Reply-To: grass@ulysses.att.com

Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill

Lines: 74

Here is my own translation (it's been awhile since I did one of

these, so be kind).

The lack of fonts and crazy transcription do not help, but here it is:

This is the statement given by Yeltsyn this morning

-- Judy Grass

- ------------- cut here ------------

To the citizens of Russia

On the night of August 19, 1991 The legally elected president of the country was removed from power.

No matter by what reasons this removal could be justified, we are dealing with a right-wing, reactionary, anti-constitutional coup.

Through all the difficulties and hardships experienced by the people,

the democratic process in our country is taking on an every braoder scope and is irreversible. The Russian people have become the masters of their own fate. The uncontrolled rights of the unconstitutional organs,

to resolve complex political and economic problems with force. They already attempted to accomplish such a coup earlier.

We believed, and continue to believe, that such violent methods are unacceptable. They discredit the USSR in front of the entire

world, they destroy our prestige in the world community, they return us to the cold war era and isolate the Soviet Union from world society.

All of this forces us to declare illegal the so-called committee that has come into power. Accordingly, we declare all of the decisions and decrees

of that committee to be illegal.

The confirmed organs of the local government will strictly adhere to constitutional law and to the orders of the president of the RSFSR (Russian Republic).

We call on the citizens of Russia to give a steadfast answer to the Putsch-ists and to demand that the country be returned fo its normal constitutional development.

It is unconditionally neccessary to guarentee that the country's

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: possibly the last email out of moscow for a while

Message-ID: <rdavis.682625461@connie.convex.com>

Date: 19 Aug 91 18:11:01 GMT

References: <DFNGATE: Nd3iTH8A*> <91.3:43.pm*> <9108191503.AA28411@w107zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de*> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account)

Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA

Lines: 60

Nntp-Posting-Host: connie.convex.com

As of a few hours ago the email links were still working.

I have not heard from anyone since Vadim's message this morning.

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 10:00:38 -0400

From: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com

Subject: well, not everything is down... maybe we'll hear something

------- Forwarded Message

MessageName: (Message 32)

From: Piet.Beertema@mcsun.EU.net

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1991 15:59:02 +0200

To: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell)