19_22_августа_1991_года

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcs o!hpfcbig!jsw From: jsw@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Jacek Walicki) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: "Koo" (?) (Re: Gorbie out)

Message-ID: <44550001@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM>

Date: 21 Aug 91 17:54:55 GMT

References: <1991Aug19.084724.9089@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Organization: 40N31m31s_105W0m43s

Lines: 8

In talk.politics.soviet, pchlau@dahlia.waterloo.edu (Patrick Lau) writes:

| Can someone tell me what it means?

1. coup \'ko-p\ vb [ME coupen to strike, fr. MF couper - more at COPE] chiefly Scot : OVERTURN, UPSET

2. coup \'ku:\ \'ku:z\ n or coups [F, blow, stroke] pl 1: a brilliant, sudden, and usu. highly successful stroke 2: COUP D'ETAT

Xref: relcom talk.politics.misc:13158 talk.politics.soviet:4007 Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Path: relcom!demos!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!pjt

From: pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale)

Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!

In-Reply-To: galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com's message of 21 Aug 91 22:36:42 GMT Message-ID: <PJT.91Aug22103227@vipunen.hut.fi> Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d

Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-PostingHost: vipunen.hut.fi

Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <bxr307.682670029@coombs> <BZS.91Aug21180343@world.std.com> <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 10:32:27

Lines: 28

In article <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com>

galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com (Greg Alt - Perp) writes: >One interesting thing that I noticed is that Bush has been praising Yeltsin,

>saying that Yeltsin stopped the coup. He has yet to praise the Russian people >who are the real reason Gorbachev is back. Leaders like to think that the >only important people are the leaders, but in this case it was the millions >of people who opposed the coup that should be praised the most. Also, the >reports that the coup "collapsed" are a little annoying... It was SMASHED by >the people...

Of course, the support of the Russian People for democracy was the key

factor in overthrowing the coup.

But I 'm pretty sure that if there had not been a charismatic leader

such as Yeltsin, to take responsibility, to claim leadership, to make convincing speeches, to have a concrete place for the masses to defend (the Russian Federation parlament house), I doubt the resistance to the coup would have been succesful. Masses on the streets are no good if they have no goals, no coordination, no feel of legal and moral righteousness. Yeltsin provided these.

We could argue over this forever, but I think that both the

Russian people AND it's democratically elected representants, namely Yeltsin and the Russian federation's parlament, were essential in bringing legal leadership back to USSR.

Pekka Taipale

pjt@vipunen.hut.fi

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!dvv

From: dvv@relcom.kiae.su (Dmitry V. Volodin)

Subject: Re: Big Brother

Message-ID: <1991Aug22.084512.6857@relcom.kiae.su>

Organization: Kurchatov Institute of Atomic Energy, Moscow, USSR References: <AEB_BEVAN@VAX.ACS.OPEN.AC.UK> <TPS-

L%91082110071530@INDYCMS.BITNET> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 08:45:12 GMT Lines: 8

We had little to lose - just look who was posting and compare it with

the very widely available info about the people in charge of USSR Internet connection.

Dima. (NIC handle DVV)

Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:4009 relcom.politics:119 Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,relcom.politics

Path: relcom!news-server

From: myn@iitc.kiev.ua (Yuri N. Muraviov)

Subject: Благодарность!

Message-ID: <AD4ssieGa6@iitc.kiev.ua>

Lines: 15

Sender: news-server@relcom

Reply-To: myn@iitc.kiev.ua

Organization: International Information Technology Centre, Kiev, Ukraine Distribution: SU

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 11:53:40 +0300

Д О Р О Г И Е Н А Ш И М О С К В И Ч И !

С П А С И Б О В А М В С Е М З А С П А С Е Н И Е У К Р А И Н Ы ! от всех сотрудников Международного центра информационных технологий

Yuri N. Muraviov International Information

Technology Centre

USSR, SU-252010, Ukraine, Kiev10,

Voice +7 044 290-74-31 Janvarskogo vosstania, 13

Thanks for your solidarity, netters.

Net means 'NO' in Russian. 'Net junte' :-)

George V Tereshko <george@jvd.msk.su>

Xref: relcom misc.headlines:3533 alt.activism:3664 talk.politics.soviet:4011 soc.rights.human:1240 Path:

relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!att !linac!convex!rdavis

From: rdavis@convex.com (Ray Davis)

Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.activism,talk.politics.s oviet,soc.rights.human Subject: Slovenia: Hard-liners ousted in Moscow - what about Belgrade ?

Summary: Forwarded mail from Yugoslavia

Message-ID: <rdavis.682845910@connie.convex.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 07:25:10 GMT

Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account)

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Nntp-Posting-Host: connie.convex.com

Date: 21 Aug 91 23:13

From: Miso.Alkalaj@ijs.ac.mail.yu

Subject: Hard-liners ousted in Moscow - what about Belgrade ? VMSmail To information: @OUT.DIS

Sender's personal name: V.Alkalaj,IJS-Comp.Centre,(+38)(61)214399 ext.666

Dear Friend,

The world breathes a little easier tonight - the hard-line Communist coup d'etat in the USSR seems to have been foiled. While democracy and peace seem to be winning in the USSR, fighting continues in Croatia;

the Federal Presidency has been meeting in Belgrade for the last two days, the presidents of individual republics attended the session - but there seems to be little progress towards peace or eventual peacefull negotiations. I hope that the events in Moscow will have a positive impact on Yugoslavia: Mr. Markovic/Mr. Milosevic/YPA have many times boasted that their policies enjoy the full support of the "Socialist oriented circles in the USSR" (in fact, Mr. Markovic returned from his last visit to Moscow with offers of military aid); with the hard-line support from USSR (most probably) gone, Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Markovic and the YPA may soon be ready for some

serious negotiations (the glitch is that they haven't displayed such type of rationality in the past).

In many ways, Yugoslavia has been compared to the USSR - in fact, I have hear oppinions that the US and EEC's handling of the Yu crisis was at least partly an "in-vivo" trial of the methods to be used in handling the USSR problems. True, Yugoslavia, like the USSR, is (was) a multi-ethnic community, with a firmly imbeded communist legacy,

kept together more or less by force; in both countries tha army was an important, conservative political force and political liberalisation brought inter-ethnic strife. However, the failed coup d'etat in USSR proved that parallels were only superficial. The Yugoslave federal Prime-Minister Mr. Markovic was in many ways compared to Mr. Gorbachev - but the resemblance is only apparent: both presented the West with their own versions of state transformation to democracy and market economy, and both expected financial and technical aid - but the motives were entirely different. Mr. Markovic was in the reform business only for his own personal power and ego, had always cooperated with (or even used) the conservative YPA as much as he could and did absolutely nothing for the democratic process the democracy, as much as it is present in Yugoslavia, was introduced by (and forced on) leaderships of individual republics; above all, Mr. Markovic faught the autonomy of republics all the way, seeking to gather

even more power within his central governement.

On the other hand, Mr. Gorbachev was also forced to appease his own conservatives quite often, but he managed nevertheless to curb their power considerably. He brought Glasnost to the USSR, liberated Soviet satelite states and was instrumental to the preparation of the new Federal agreement, which transferes considerable power to the republics (the signing which the puchists tried to prevent). Mr. Gorbachev was "taken ill" because he refused to cooperate with the hard-liners, while Mr. Markovic signed the order that sent YPA units rampaging through Slovenia. The Perestrojka, Mr. Gorbachev's economic and organisational reform did not save USSR from impending economic collapse (and may have helped to speed it up - though it could hardly be said to have caused it) - while Mr. Markovic brought Yu economy to its knees with his "bold" (experimetalistic is probably a better word) monetary measures.

While the backlash of the unavoidable economic reforms

impoverishes the citizens of USSR even more, Mr. Gorbachev may not be remembered as a "good guy", but he will enter word history as a visionary who forced USSR to break with its past - for better or worse. On the other hand,

Mr. Markovic will be remembered as the man who tried to impede the course of democracy and helped a great deal to the start of the civil war - while wrecking the economy in the process.

People who see similarities between Gorbachev and Markovic tend to draw the other parallel: Yeltsin/Russia - Milosevic/Serbia - and nothing could be further from the truth. Yeltsin and Milosevic may both have started their careers as minor Party officials, but Mr. Yeltsin went on to leave the Party and to win the ellections as a neutral candidate - while Mr. Milosevic achieved leadership of Serbian Communist Party, painted it over with socialist colors and won the elections as a Party - i.e., "continuity" - candidate. Mr. Yeltsin set out to break the Party strong-hold on the economy and organisation of Russia by barring the Party from companies - while Mr. Milosevic replaced competent managers with his obedient Party henchmen. But above all, Mr. Yeltsin contributed actively to the lessening of ethnic tension in the USSR; Russians as the largest nation were naturaly percieved as opressors and a danger to (nationalistically-inspired) democratic processes in the republics - and Russian minorities were put under severe preassure, even physical attack, in some republics. Yet Mr. Yeltsin did not call on his people "to defend their brothers" but actually supported the autonomy-pursuing leaderships of Lithania, Latvia, Estonia, etc - which immediately relieved the preassure on Russian

minorities, since they were no longer percieved as a threat to eventual secession. On the other hand, Mr. Milosevic whipped Serbs into a nationalistic frenzy, convinced them that Serbs were threatened everywhere by everybody, and supplied arms and

"volounteers" for a first strike against their enemies. And while Mr. Yeltsin put up barricades against a conservative coup d'etat, Mr. Milosevic has called for a YPA intervention several times and supported it wholeheartedly when it finaly came; while Mr. Yeltsin made Russians into the most popular nation in USSR, defenders of democracy and human rights - Mr. Milosevic made Serbs into the most hated people in Yugoslavia, and international parriahs.

I expect that most of the USSR will stay together and will, after a lengthy (and tortuous) process of reforms regain an important role in

the word; this will be lagerly due to efforts of Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin - and they both also contributed enormously to the word peace. Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin are statesmen, to be remembered in the same class with F.D. Roosevelt, Winston Churchil and Mahatma Ghandi.

Yugoslavia is already in a state of civil war and should the present trends persist, I expect Yugoslavia to fall apart violently - and the resultant gaggle of small, quarreling states

will be a permanent living definition of the verb "to balkanize". There is no doubt that Mr. Milosevic started the war in Yugoslavia and that Mr. Markovic paved the way - but I do not think these two can aspire even to a Herostrathic fame of a Hitler or Saddam Hussein: I think they will only be remembered as Balkan thugs and intrigators with inflated egos.

The US and EEC should definitely reconsider their policies towards Eastern Europe: USSR will have to be offered substancial economic aid (which German Chancelour Mr. Kohl has been advocating for some time)

to facilitate transition into market economy; but the policy of moral and political support to the democratic Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin worked. On the other hand, Western support for "territorialy unified Yugoslavia" - which supported the

centralistic and conservative policies of Mr. Markovic and Mr. Milosevic - caused a civil war.

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSL@indycms.bitnet>

Lines: 7

Congratulations!

Next group in my .newrc is alt.sex.movies - good way to relax.

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-):

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mikhail Sukhar | (408)773-1917 | mikhail@netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.e du!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!chinet.chi.il.us!dhartung From: dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us (Dan Hartung)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Bye-bye Gorby. . .

Message-ID: <9108220855.AA04739@presto.ig.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 04:06:52 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSL@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 49

kimcm@diku.dk (Kim Christian Madsen) writes:

>However, I can't help having a nagging feeling that this coup might be >masterminded by Gorby himself, in order to win popular support and be >able to "win" his way back and purge the old hardliners once and for >all. This might sound far-fetched but look at the following "facts":

> Gorby put a lot of prestige into getting the VP Yanajev

> elected -- A gray and dull man who was always following

> orders.

He needed someone acceptable to both sides. Almost impossible.

> The coup d'etat was carried out on a monday, former KGB

people

> tells the standard KGB way of making coups are to place

them

> at fridays, where people are out of the way and they have

the

> weekend to consolidate themselves in power.

I think their hand was forced by Yakovlev's announcement on

Friday. It may be that they felt they had no choice but to move before they were actually ready.

> The coup-makers aren't making decissive moves, actually it

> seems like they have no plan at all.

I think they just cound't get the right people to cooperate.

> Why state health reasons "high-blood-pressure & back-ache"

> reasons for Gorby's resignation, why not "cardiac arrest"

> even "lead poisoning" or something equally deadly to get

him

> out of the way for good!

They were too chicken to kill him.

> Why is Boris Yeltsin still on the loose, he is far more

dangerous

Ditto.

> The actions of the coup-makers are as though they didn't

even

> think the coup was going to be a success....

The tentative moves they made are evidence of the realization that they weren't successful just 'declaring' themselves in power. Maybe they thought they could scare people into rolling over.

Daniel A. Hartung | "The idea of a US military victory in Vietnam

dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us | is a dangerous illusion." -Undersec of the

Birch Grove Software | Air Force Townsend Hoopes, in a

private letter

| to new Sec of Defense Clark Clifford, 2/13/68

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!hpfcbig.sde.hp.com!jsw From:

jsw@HPFCBIG.SDE.HP.COM (Jacek Walicki)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: "Koo" (?) (Re: Gorbie out)

Message-ID: <9108220908.AA05431@presto.ig.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:54:55 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-

L@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 8

In talk.politics.soviet, pchlau@dahlia.waterloo.edu (Patrick Lau) writes:

| Can someone tell me what it means?

1. coup \'ko-p\ vb [ME coupen to strike, fr. MF couper - more at COPE]

chiefly Scot : OVERTURN, UPSET

2. coup \'ku:\ \'ku:z\ n or coups [F, blow, stroke] pl 1: a

brilliant,

sudden, and usu. highly successful stroke 2: COUP D'ETAT

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!malgudi!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!zeus.unomaha.edu!oneil From: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: The storm is over...

Message-ID: <20277.28b31387@zeus.unomaha.edu>

Date: 22 Aug 91 07:29:42 GMT

Lines: 16

Is it okay to post again to talk.politics.soviet?

I hope that our Soviet friends can once again join in dialogue with us

here now that the storm has passed. :-) I cried last night as I watched

the violence on television and I was overcome with joy this morning when I heard that the people had won!

-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sharon Lindsey O'Neil "I could be happy/I could be quite

naive/ Bitnet: oneil@unomai1 It's only me and my shadow/Happy in our Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu make

believe/Soon." -- Tears for Fears ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!conve x.com!rdavis From: rdavis@CONVEX.COM (Ray Davis)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Slovenia: Hard-liners ousted in Moscow - what about Belgrade ? Message-ID: <9108220919.AA06040@presto.ig.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 07:25:10 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-

L@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 140

Date: 21 Aug 91 23:13

From: Miso.Alkalaj@ijs.ac.mail.yu

Subject: Hard-liners ousted in Moscow - what about Belgrade ?

VMSmail To information: @OUT.DIS

Sender's personal name: V.Alkalaj,IJS-Comp.Centre,(+38)(61)214399 ext.666

Dear Friend,

The world breathes a little easier tonight - the hard-line

Communist

coup d'etat in the USSR seems to have been foiled. While democracy and

peace seem to be winning in the USSR, fighting continues in

Croatia;

the Federal Presidency has been meeting in Belgrade for the last

two

days, the presidents of individual republics attended the session

but there seems to be little progress towards peace or eventual peacefull negotiations. I hope that the events in Moscow will

have a

positive impact on Yugoslavia: Mr. Markovic/Mr. Milosevic/YPA

have many

times boasted that their policies enjoy the full support of the

"Socialist oriented circles in the USSR" (in fact, Mr. Markovic returned from his last visit to Moscow with offers of military

aid);

with the hard-line support from USSR (most probably) gone, Mr.

Milosevic, Mr. Markovic and the YPA may soon be ready for some serious negotiations (the glitch is that they haven't displayed such

type of rationality in the past).

In many ways, Yugoslavia has been compared to the USSR - in fact, I have hear oppinions that the US and EEC's handling of the Yu

crisis was at least partly an "in-vivo" trial of the methods to be used in handling the USSR problems. True, Yugoslavia, like the USSR, is (was) a multi-ethnic community, with a firmly imbeded communist legacy,

have caused it) - while Mr. Markovic brought Yu economy to its knees with his "bold" (experimetalistic is probably a better word) monetary measures.

While the backlash of the unavoidable economic reforms impoverishes the citizens of USSR even more, Mr. Gorbachev may not be remembered as a "good guy", but he will enter word history as a visionary who forced USSR to break with its past - for better or worse. On the other hand, Mr. Markovic will be remembered as the man who tried to impede the course of democracy and helped a great deal to the start of the civil war - while wrecking the economy in the process.

physical attack, in some republics. Yet Mr. Yeltsin did not call on his people "to defend their brothers" but actually supported the autonomy-pursuing leaderships of Lithania,

Latvia, Estonia, etc - which immediately relieved the preassure

Russian minorities, since they were no longer percieved as a

threat to

eventual secession. On the other hand, Mr. Milosevic whipped

Serbs

into a nationalistic frenzy, convinced them that Serbs were

threatened

everywhere by everybody, and supplied arms and "volounteers" for

first strike against their enemies. And while Mr. Yeltsin put up

barricades against a conservative coup d'etat, Mr. Milosevic has

called for a YPA intervention several times and supported it wholeheartedly when it finaly came; while Mr. Yeltsin made

Russians

into the most popular nation in USSR, defenders of democracy and

human

rights - Mr. Milosevic made Serbs into the most hated people in

Yugoslavia, and international parriahs.

I expect that most of the USSR will stay together and will, after

lengthy (and tortuous) process of reforms regain an important

role in

the word; this will be lagerly due to efforts of Mr. Gorbachev

and Mr.

Yeltsin - and they both also contributed enormously to the word

peace.

Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin are statesmen, to be remembered in

the

same class with F.D. Roosevelt, Winston Churchil and Mahatma Ghandi.

Yugoslavia is already in a state of civil war and should the

present

trends persist, I expect Yugoslavia to fall apart violently - and

the

resultant gaggle of small, quarreling states will be a permanent

living definition of the verb "to balkanize". There is no doubt

that

Mr. Milosevic started the war in Yugoslavia and that Mr. Markovic

paved the way - but I do not think these two can aspire even to a Herostrathic fame of a Hitler or Saddam Hussein: I think they

will

only be remembered as Balkan thugs and intrigators with inflated egos.

The US and EEC should definitely reconsider their policies

towards

Eastern Europe: USSR will have to be offered substancial economic

aid

(which German Chancelour Mr. Kohl has been advocating for some

time)

to facilitate transition into market economy; but the policy of

moral

and political support to the democratic Mr. Gorbachev and Mr.

Yeltsin

worked. On the other hand, Western support for "territorialy

unified

Yugoslavia" - which supported the centralistic and conservative policies of Mr. Markovic and Mr. Milosevic - caused a civil war.

Isn't the lesson obvious enough ?

Regards,

Vladimir Alkalaj

Head of Computer Centre

"Jozef Stefan" Institute Telephone: +38 61 214 399

Jamova 39 Telefax: +38 61 219 385

61111 Ljubljana E-mail: miso.alkalaj@ijs.ac.mail.yu

Slovenia (ex-Yugoslavia)

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!malgudi!caen!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!vipunen.hut.fi!pjt From: pjt@VIPUNEN.HUT.FI (Pekka J Taipale)

namely Yeltsin and the Russian federation's parlament, were essential in bringing legal leadership back to USSR.

Pekka Taipale

pjt@vipunen.hut.fi

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Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Misha and Raisa (was re: MS Gorborchov ?)

Message-ID: <9108220924.AA06302@presto.ig.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:22:11 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSL@indycms.bitnet>

Lines: 30

In article <1991Aug20.143643.210@husky1.stmarys.ca>

smuss@husky1.stmarys.ca

writes:

>So what do you guys think has happened to MS Gorbechev ?

They locked her together with her husband, in order to break his willpower. Misha is expected to crumble after the jillionth "I told you so!"... Incidentally, in order to alleviate the spelling problem, I recommend translating Misha's last name into English. "Humpy", we hardly knew ya...

>--

> SMUSS@Husky1.Stmarys.Ca | BREAD IS THE TRUE

> The Saint Marys University | OPIATE

> Sociology Society | OF THE MASSES

> ---------------------------------------------------

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ /\/\

| ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?'' |

| (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938) |

| Mikhail Zeleny Harvard |

| 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 doesn't |

| Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 think |

| (617) 661-8151 so |

| email zeleny@math.harvard.edu or zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu |

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ \/\/

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state.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!zeus.unomaha.edu!oneil From: oneil@ZEUS.UNOMAHA.EDU

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: The storm is over...

Message-ID: <9108220938.AA06892@presto.ig.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 07:29:42 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSL@indycms.bitnet>

Lines: 16

Is it okay to post again to talk.politics.soviet?

I hope that our Soviet friends can once again join in dialogue with us here now that the storm has passed. :-) I cried last night as I watched

the violence on television and I was overcome with joy this morning when I heard that the people had won!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sharon Lindsey O'Neil "I could be happy/I could be quite naive/ Bitnet: oneil@unomai1 It's only me and my shadow/Happy in our Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu make

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-ID: <1483700015@cdp> Date: 22 Aug 91 05:01:00 GMT

References: <14046291@1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com>

Lines: 6

Nf-ID: #R:1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com:1404629123:cdp:1483700015:000:108 Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!hmuskat Aug 21 22:01:00 1991

I think you are on to something & I'll have more to say later.

See my post which might follow.

Hal Muskat

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!bionet!ig!sgi.com!hmuskat From: hmuskat@SGI.COM

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Coup? What coup?

Message-ID: <9108221131.AA08933@presto.ig.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 05:01:00 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSL@indycms.bitnet>

Lines: 5

I think you are on to something & I'll have more to say later.

See my post which might follow.

Hal Muskat

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!cat.syr.edu!anderson From: anderson@CAT.SYR.EDU (Joseph Anderson)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Kasparov on Tonight Show

Message-ID: <9108221145.AA09118@presto.ig.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 11:38:30 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

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I could do with the list of fax numbers.

anderson@cat.syr.edu

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohiostate.edu!ucbvax!wrc.xerox.com!haoxu From: haoxu@wrc.xerox.com (Hao xu)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: USSR's seat in UN

Message-ID: <9108211413.AA19342@crystal.wrc.xerox.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:13:50 GMT

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My friend told me every republic of USSR has a seat in UN. He also told me USA never accepted these republics as a part of USSR. I can't believe it. Could anyone here tell me the truth?

Hao

WRC, Xerox

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!wrc. xerox.com!haoxu From: haoxu@wrc.xerox.com (Hao xu)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: USSR's seat in UN

Message-ID: <9108221215.AA09769@presto.ig.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:13:50 GMT

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My friend told me every republic of USSR has a seat in UN. He also told me USA never accepted these republics as a part of USSR. I can't believe it. Could anyone here tell me the truth?

None of the other republics, as far as I know. Konrad Weigl Tel. (France) 93 65 78 63

Projet Pastis Fax (France) 93 65 78 58 INRIA-Sophia Antipolis email Weigl@sophia.inria.fr 2004 Route des Lucioles B.P. 109

06561 Valbonne Cedex

France

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!sibelius.in ria.fr!weigl From: weigl@SIBELIUS.INRIA.FR (Konrad Weigl) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re:

Message-ID: <9108221325.AA11146@presto.ig.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 12:39:59 GMT

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As far as I know, the Ukraine and Bielorussia (Also called White Russia, although I believe they call themselves Ruthenes) have, besides the

USSR itself, their own seat in the UN.

None of the other republics, as far as I know.

Konrad Weigl Tel. (France) 93 65 78 63

Projet Pastis Fax (France) 93 65 78 58 INRIA-Sophia Antipolis email Weigl@sophia.inria.fr 2004 Route des Lucioles B.P. 109

06561 Valbonne Cedex

France

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!samsung!sol.ctr.columbi a.edu!ucselx!bionet!ig!uga.bitnet!JKELLEY From: JKELLEY@uga.bitnet ("F.Joseph Kelley")

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: USSR's seat in UN

Message-ID: <9108221340.AA11512@presto.ig.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 13:30:47 GMT

References: <haoxu@WRC.XEROX.COM>

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Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSL@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 8

I believe George Kennan discussed this in his "memoirs" (can't recall which volume...prob 1)...it was brought up at the formation of the UN...all the republics should have a vote....US said well, sure, and we'll want one for each of the (then) 48 states....an agreement was made

that US and SU would have 3 each (I believe Ukraine has one, for example). US has never exercised this option....am sure I'll hear if this is wrong, but will see whether I can find the reference... --Joe Kelley

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!s5!joec

From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: I am swamped with replies...here is how to get a penpal in USSR Message-ID: <1991Aug22.130854.1044@fid.morgan.com>

Date: 22 Aug 91 13:08:54 GMT

Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY

Lines: 70

I received a LOT of requests on how to get a soviet penpal. Here is the canned reply I send out that explains exactly how to go about do it. If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me at joec@morgan.com ---------------------------------------------------------

Many people asked me how they could establish a 'penpal' relationship with Soviet families. I have been doing this for 2 years now - our friends are in Moscow and are a family of four. We have exchanged photos, stamps, postcards, magazines, nominal amounts of currency and even an audio cassette.

We are lucky that they are fairly good in English and usually send both a Russian and English version of their letters.

It turns out that many many Soviets apparently know at least some English. I know ZERO Russian but have learned some since we started, mostly with dictionaries.

We have found this to be a fun relationship and may plan to visit them someday....

If you are interested and wish to locate a Soviet Family to correspond with, write to: