19_22_августа_1991_года

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From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Saddam, Qadafi and Arafat

Message-ID: <88209@bu.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 18:43:54 GMT

Sender: news@bu.edu

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I understand that these three men were the only world leaders who cheered the (now failed) coup in USSR. Can anyone confirm/contradict this. (I stress that I mean welcoming the coup rather than just going along with it, like, say, China did. I understand that Saddam even implied some kind of active role in the coup - what a clown.)

Gene Itkis (gene@cs.bu.edu)

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From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups:

talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: coup seems to be over

Message-ID: <TPS-L%91082113460481@INDYCMS.BITNET> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:44:52 GMT

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On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 17:07:42 GMT Allen W. Sherzer said:

>In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi

(Kankaala Kari) > writes:

>>The apparent reason for the coup not to have succeeded seems to >>be the nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans and the >>Russian parliament,

>I disagree. The reason for the failure of the coup was the incompetance >of the committee. If Stalin (for example) lead the coup both Gorby and >Yeltzin would have died early on Aug. 19. Control of communications >would have been better, and it would have worked.

>Let's not draw the wrong lesson from all this.

Good point. Those dedicated to total non-violence cannot justify their positions based upon what was occurring. Those Molotovs sure looked violent to me. And the people who found out how heavy tanks are

by becoming road pizzas weren't killed by nonviolence.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!netcoms v!ergo From: ergo@netcom.COM (Isaac Rabinovitch)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Talk to the general media?

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.180116.14255@netcom.COM>

Date: 21 Aug 91 18:01:16 GMT

References: <18914@venera.isi.edu>

<1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> Organization: UESPA Lines: 37

In <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu>

jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes:

>In article <18914@venera.isi.edu>, lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) writes:

>|>

>|> Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet

>|> and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted?

>|>

>|> What do you think? Does the KGB know about the Net anyhow? >The media know about the net, and many reporters are on it... >It's possible that press reports about the role of the net

>might prompt some Soviet bureaucrat to cut the link...

> ... We'll

>just have to rely on their sense of responsibility (this probably >means you shouldn't tell your local TV reporters: they are an >incredibly dim-witted and irresponsible breed).

This whole line of discussion strikes me as a little silly. You only have to turn on the TV set to see that Soviet authorities have lost most of their ability to control the flow of information. (Can you imagine Western reporters moving around Moscow so freely 5 years ago, even in non-crisis times?) Why do you suppose Soviet reform began in the first place?

Indeed, if they'd realized how far the process had gone, the plotters would probably have realized the coup had no hope of succeeding.

ergo@netcom.com Isaac Rabinovitch netcom!ergo@apple.com Silicon Valley, CA {apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo

"Where's the rest of me?"

--Ronald Reagan

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state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: close neighbor

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.191258.16797@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 19:12:58 GMT

References: <3152@kielo.uta.fi> <1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> <PJT.91Aug21101648@vipunen.hut.fi> Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System)

Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 35

In article <PJT.91Aug21101648@vipunen.hut.fi> pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale) writes:

}In article <1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>

jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt) writes: }

}>}Finland offers an excellent place to monitor broadcasts from the USSR as

}>}we are their closest neighbour.

}

}>Perhaps you mean to Moscow? There are other countries with borders

}>on the Soviet Union. Even the US of A is only 3 miles from the Soviet }>Union...

}

}>But Finland does make an excellent listening site, with a straight }>shot across the water ("Whiskey on the Rocks". hehehehe)

}

}Actually, that "Whiskey on the Rocks" thing happened in Sweden. We }don't have to cross water to get to USSR,

I appologize. I've spent a lot of time in the water, but the adjacent land is not as well remembered as it should.

I'm sorry.

}BTW, it seems strange to me why the PLO - along with Iraq and Libya }is once again betting on a dead horse. Don't they have any mind at }all? How do they think anybody will take them seriously when they }talk about democracy and freedom, now that they support such an }undemocratic coup like this?

As soon as the PLO spoke out in favor of the coup, the committee of 8 was doomed. The PLO seems to go out of its way to pick losers.

Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts, however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.

jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or meritt%aplvm.BITNET

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au !cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: <none>

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.223550.3398@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 21 Aug 91 22:35:50 GMT

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In article <AAzrdieCY0@inzer.demos.su> dimitri@inzer.demos.su writes:

> WE WON !!!

Congratulations Dimitri and all of you. Your courage is admired. "Ding, dong the witch is dead."

(But PLEASE don't let the munchkins celebrations delay arresting

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!olivea!oliveb!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Radio Moscow sounds strange tonite Message-ID: <1991Aug21.224058.7924@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:40:58 GMT References: <20802526@1991Aug20.054723.703@anasaz> <1483700012@cdp> Organization: VERITAS Software

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In article <1483700012@cdp> rbernstein@cdp.UUCP writes:

>I think the ``normal'' voice you are referring to is Vladimir Posner, >originally from New York, who was the principal voice for many years; >he resigned in protest several months ago.

Posner was on Tue, 8/21, Nightline. He was at the ABC's Moscow headqarters and was his usual smooth, sarcastic, eloquent self.

DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586

Xref: relcom talk.politics.misc:13156 misc.headlines:3532 talk.politics.soviet:3964 alt.activism:3662 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!world!bzs

From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activis m

Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!

Message-ID: <BZS.91Aug21180343@world.std.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 23:03:42 GMT

References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <bxr307.682670029@coombs> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU>

<1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com>

Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)

Organization: The World

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In-Reply-To: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com's message of Wed, 21 Aug 91 11: 27:03 GMT

What I find more amusing is how conservative-chic it had become to praise Gorby and for the conservatives to take credit for everything going on over there...

...But the minute things went wrong, BLAME IT ON THE "LIBERALS"! Now that the coup is over and has ended (hopefully) happily is that the "liberal's fault" also? No, now the conservatives around here will try to reel it all back.

how f***ing transparent.

-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com |

uunet!world!bzs

Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617739-WRLD

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From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Putsch or coup?

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.221546.3250@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 21 Aug 91 22:15:46 GMT

References: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> <38372@mimsy.umd.edu>

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In article <38372@mimsy.umd.edu> biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) writes:

>Either word applies, but I'm going to continue to use "putsch," "junta,"

>and, at Albert's suggestion, "fascist" to identify the

perpetrators >of this action. These words have more propaganda value, especially >in the Soviet Union, whose people carry a reflexive hatred of all >things Nazi. Normally I don't go in for euphemistic propaganda, but >here I'll use it shamelessly. And the hard liners of the CPSU have

>progressed to the point where the political extremes become identical.

Actually "fascist" is not just my suggestion, though I would be happy to take credit for it, but the term used by demonstrators against the coup in the Soviet Union itself. It isn't a matter of euphemistic propaganda or of "political extremes become identical" but a more accurate characterization of the actual politics of these people who call themselves "Communists" (remember the Nazis called themselves

the "German National Socialist Workers Party").

The western mass media has only recently begun to adopt the terminology

long accepted within the Soviet Union itself, where pro-western democrats are called "left wing" and the Brezhnevite types are called

"right wing". When you consider that the bourgeois democrats are about as left-wing as their idols like Margaret Thatcher and George Bush,

you get a real appreciation of how VERY "right wing" their opponents

can be.

In China too, the Tien An men protestors called Teng Hsiao-ping's regime "fascist". (BTW When the pro-Moscow "Portuguese Communist Party" tried to stage a putsch after the collapse of Portuguese fascism they were widely labelled as "social-fascist").

I got a real kick out of watching former CIA chief George Bush denouncing the "right-wing reactionary coup" and emoting about democracy and people's power. I haven't enjoyed the show so much since Nixon had to crawl to Peking :-)

I just LOVE the way the mass media and Western heads of Government enthuse over mass movements bringing down "reactionary regimes" through action on the streets. They sang a different tune when similar mass action on the streets overthrew de Gaulle's Government in France and helped defeat U.S. aggression against Vietnam in the late 1960s and early 1970s. No doubt they

will sing a different tune, later in the 1990s, when people

in the West, just like those in the East, resort to mass action against a ruling class that offers nothing but economic crisis and decay.

Of course it suits anti-Communists in the West to call those regimes "Communist" and "hardline" more often than they admit to them being "right-wing" (and in fact it was quite surprising for Bush to make that admission). One can hardly blame anti-Communists for taking advantage of the fact that these fascist thugs DO dress up in

red stars and hammer and sickle emblems and claim to be Communist. But the pictures of the wall tumbling in Berlin,

and workers and students burning armoured personnel carriers

in Peking and crowds overthrowing dictatorships from Poland and Czechoslovakia to the Soviet Union, will be remembered far

better than the anti-Communist propaganda, when people finally start to do something about mass unemployment etc.

>What I am most concerned is that, assuming the junta succeed in >taking control, neither the Soviet people nor the world forget >just how evil these people are. Remember that Lenin and Stalin >were admired by many in the West, who found all manner

>of excuses for their evil.

It is understandable that most democrats in the Soviet Union

hate Lenin, Stalin and Communism bitterly, since their oppressors are said to be Leninists, Stalinists and Communists. But as I have argued in another message, they will have to act with at least some of the ruthlessness of Lenin and Stalin to SUPPRESS their opponents if they want an end to the slavish legacy of servility that has allowed such creeps as the Brezhnevites to stultify the nations of the former Tsarist empire. Before calling that "evil", check out what kind of forcible measures English speaking peoples resorted to under democratic leaders like Abraham Lincoln - some half a million dead so that "Government of the people, by the people

and for the people shall not perish from this earth".

Actually the Soviet junta are no more Leninists, Stalinists or Communists than the democrats are. Perhaps the Albanian regime could be said to at least PRETEND to be folowers of Lenin and Stalin but

NONE of the fascist junta members in the Soviet Union, nor the leaders of any of the other countries of Eastern Europe that

were overthrown recently even made that pretence. They ALL openly renounced Leninism, declared Stalin to be a criminal mass murderer and described themselves as "social democrats" (the sworn enemies of Communism). The regimes that collapsed recently were the regimes that OVERTHREW Stalinism in the mid-1950s. (Likewise the wimpy pseudo-leftists in the west that sometimes apologized for those regimes even though not consistently supporting them, bear no resemblance to genuinely left politics).

>There are approx. 150,000 citizens of Moscow who appear ready to >lay down their lives in a "futile" effort to stop the putsch. It

>is up to us to preserve the memory of what happens. Though we may >have to deal with the facists' government, just as we had to deal >with Stalin, Brezhnev, Andropov, and Mao, we must remember that we are >dealing with truly evil men.

How inspiring. They can lay down their lives in a "futile" effort and we can "preserve the memory" while still dealing with the fascists.

There is NOTHING "futile" about standing up to fascism and when people

do they can WIN.

Incidentally, Mao's regime in China never rolled tanks over demonstrators (and yes they WERE faced with a "Tien An men" incident which ultimately undermined their regime, but did NOT react that way). The Maoists suppressed fascists like Teng Hsiaoping as long as they could. When

the Chinese fascists came to power, Teng was cheered as a great "democrat" by the West, but the Maoist characterization of him as a fascist proved

to be more accurate. Checkout the political history of the Soviet fascist junta now overthrown and you will find that they were ALL Khruschevites hailed

by the West for overthrowing "Stalinism", just as Teng was hailed for

overthrowing "Maoism".

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken!sun-barr!apple!ig!relay.eu.net!conrad From: conrad@relay.eu.net (Conrad Longmore)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Contacting the News People & Local Media

Message-ID: <17870.9108212147@tharr.uucp>

Date: 21 Aug 91 20:47:13 GMT

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I passed this information off to the British Foreign Office :-) Although it's blown over, we don't really want to place the link at risk. I

know some journos too.. maybe it's safe to tell them now. :-)

// Conrad Longmore / Uucp: ..!ukc!axion!tharr!conrad / Owner of a 2CV //

// Bedford College / Janet: tharr!conrad @ uk.ac.ukc / Owner of

a 2CV // //-----------------/ Or try: conrad @ tharr.uucp

/ Much better than a //

// ** T H A R R ** /---------------------------------/ Owner of a Sky TV // // +44 234 841503 / Free access to Usenet in the UK /-------------------// Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!veritas !oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: The coup, information, and coverage Message-ID: <1991Aug21.221854.7425@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:18:54 GMT References: <35056@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug19.235958.20099@Veritas.COM> <REYNOLDS.91Aug20173658@park.bu.edu> Organization: VERITAS Software

Lines: 20

In article <REYNOLDS.91Aug20173658@park.bu.edu> reynolds@park.bu.edu (John Reynolds) writes: >Oleg> No, it could not be averted by economic bribes. The coup seems to be by >Wouldn't it have been impossible even to have CONCEIVED a coup attempt

>if Gorbachev had, for example, returned from the G7 conference

with

>solid offers of economic aid?

It appears from all I have heard that the major reason for the

coup was the impending signing of the "9+1" treaty, which would have effectively dissolved the territoral and political unity of USSR.

Also, keep in mind that the staggering economic disarray in USSR was deliberately precipitated by the old system's functionaries responsible

for the goods and produce distribution network. The infusions of money

and goods would have been just as ineffective and unfelt by the masses as the aid given so far.

DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!usc!apple!ig!untvax.bitnet!IH04 From: IH04@untvax.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Reuter reports collapse

Message-ID: <01G9NDC2VCZ40006EP@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 22:31:00 GMT

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GORBACHEV REASSERTS CONTROL, SOVIET COUP COLLAPSES

By Ron Popeski

MOSCOW, Aug 21, Reuter - Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev said he was back in full control on Wednesday after a 60-hour coup by

communist hardliners crumbled under popular resistance, and relieved troops returned to barracks.

Gorbachev, held prisoner at his Crimean holiday home since Monday's dawn

coup, told state television and radio he was back in charge after the Emergency Committee of army, secret police and Communist Party diehards who tried to topple him collapsed.

Four of the coup leaders, including Defence Minister Dmitry Yazov and KGB chief Vladimir Kryuchkov, were reported to have flown to Gorbachev's Black Sea dacha, apparently hoping to negotiate, as a state prosecutor launched criminal proceedings against the plotters.

Gorbachev, 60, sounding in good health and buoyant, spoke by telephone with Russian President Boris Yeltsin, who spearheaded resistance to the takeover, and U.S. President George Bush. He told them he would fly back to Moscow to resume his duties soon.

The tanks and armoured cars which the putschists had ordered

into the

streets withdrew from Moscow during the day, cheered by prodemocracy demonstrators who had rallied to Yeltsin's call to defy the coup.

Soviet television said Gorbachev had declared "that he is in full control of

the situation and has restored contact with the country, broken off as a result of the adventurist actions of a group of state officials."

Thousands of protesters defending the besieged Russian parliament building had repulsed overnight attempts by light tanks to smash through barricades outside the building, pelting them

with stones and petrol bombs. At least three civilians were killed in the clashes.

The coup, which muzzled the press and threatened to roll back Gorbachev's perestroika democratic reforms, failed due to a mixture of the extent of public opposition, apparent divisions

within the security forces and the key failure to silence Yeltsin. The outspoken Russian leader, who quit the Communist Party last

year, was first to announce that the coup had failed and its leaders were trying to flee by plane. He called for their arrest.

Hours later, Tass news agency reported that parliament had

reinstated

Gorbachev and declared the coup illegal. The state of emergency declared on Monday and the curfew imposed unsuccessfully on Tuesday were both lifted.

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ANALYSIS: PROBLEMS FROM BEFORE COUP STILL DEMAND ACTION

BY TASS political observer Sergei Kolesnikov

MOSCOW (AUG. 21) TASS - It seems that time for a comprehensive estimation of the recent developments has not come yet, since the events go on.

However, the analysis of the latest reports enables a conclusion that the attempt of unconstitutional removal of Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev and the introduction of a state of emergency has failed, although the threat of dramatic development of events has not gone and there are no grounds for euphoria.

Many questions still wait for their answers, primarily the one who is to blame for what has happened. But if one thinks of the

reasons for such a sharp turn in the history of perestroika, the picture is quite clear.

Most complicated problems, the society faced when overcoming a prolonged crisis, still remain. The problems include a grave situation in the economy, living through a period of transition to market relations, interethnic discord, polysemous processes in political and social spheres and a high level of social tension. The solution of these problems on the way of democratic

development, on the

basis of political centrism, to which President Gorbachev is adherent, is the only possibility to overcome the crisis.

Unfortunately, ultra-radicals of both right and left wings

could not and, to my mind, cannot even now understand this. Both opposing sides, each of which roused the other's ambitions, forced the situation. As a result, "a critical mass" appeared at one of

the poles and an explosion came.

That is the general scheme of events that preceded the attempt to remove the Soviet president from power. A vivid illustration to this became the attitude of the right and left wings to the Union Treaty, which was to come into force on August 20.

The date of unconstitutional actions was not accidental.

The treaty would considerably strengthen the new political

reality, the

still fragile concord in society and create a basis for progress and the expansion of economic and political space of the Union.

But this would mean a farewell to out-dated illusions of

unitarianism. The events of August 19 became an attempt to save the passing power system with the help of military force. However, it's not excluded that the authors and makers of the coup proceeded from, as they thought, good intentions to overcome the crisis.

Why did the attempt to change the character of the country's

development

fail?

Certainly, a great role in this was played by the decisive stand of people's deputies of the USSR and Union republics, active measures of the Russian leadership and the support of thousands of people, who stood up to defend democratic achievements.

An important factor is that the very society has changed a lot over the

perestroika years. These quality changes do not allow seeds of extremes to grow, and raise barriers in the way of the use of force by those who want to turn the history backward.

Certainly, there is no and cannot be guarantees that some unexpectedness are not waiting for us on the way to renovation. However, the recent events give grounds to optimism.

What should be done in the nearest future?

First of all, constitutional functions of the lawful head of the state -President Mikhail Gorbachev -- should be restored on a full scale. The rights

of the supreme commander of the Soviet Armed Forces should belong to him and him only.

It is Gorbachev and nobody else who should enjoy all the power within the

authority granted to him by the Soviet Constitution.

Another important thing, to my mind, is that during the "rehabilitation" period and the exit from the stress regime of the state of emergency, we cannot allow emotions to overwhelm and extremism of ones to be replaced by a "mirror" ultra-radicalism of the other wing.

Lessons of the August Crisis should serve as a severe warning.

A special theme is the stand of the West.

The world community was practically unanimous in its negative attitude to the introduction of the state of emergency. Specific measures have been taken to curb the business cooperation that just began to develop.

However, one cannot help thinking if those who were slow to help Gorbachev in carrying out the reforms also have grounds to take upon themselves at least a part of the guilt for the recent developments.

Did not some measures on "supplementary arming" taken in the West feed conservative forces' speculations and their pressure on the Soviet president?

It seems that the best way to overcome the crisis will be an activization of

not only moral but also, based on mutual benefit, material support to democratic reforms in the Soviet Union on behalf of the West and a coordinated movement towards the lowering of armaments level.

The lessons of the three August days should become a subject of a serious

analysis and a basis for practical conclusions in this sphere as well.

Xref: relcom talk.politics.misc:13157 talk.politics.soviet:3970 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!orca!scratchy!galt

From: galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com (Greg Alt - Perp)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 22:36:42 GMT

References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <bxr307.682670029@coombs> <BZS.91Aug21180343@world.std.com> Sender: galt@scratchy (Greg Alt - Perp)

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Nntp-Posting-Host: 130.187.85.107

In article <BZS.91Aug21180343@world.std.com>, bzs@world.std.com

(Barry Shein) writes:

> What I find more amusing is how conservative-chic it had become to

> praise Gorby and for the conservatives to take credit for everything

> going on over there...

> ...But the minute things went wrong, BLAME IT ON THE "LIBERALS"! >

> Now that the coup is over and has ended (hopefully) happily is that

> the "liberal's fault" also? No, now the conservatives around here will

> try to reel it all back.

> how f***ing transparent.

One interesting thing that I noticed is that Bush has been praising Yeltsin,

saying that Yeltsin stopped the coup. He has yet to praise the Russian people who are the real reason Gorbachev is back. Leaders like to think that the only important people are the leaders, but in this case it was the millions

of people who opposed the coup that should be praised the most. Also, the reports that the coup "collapsed" are a little annoying... It was SMASHED by the people...

Greg

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!krogers From: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Coup? What coup?

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.223431.29122@javelin.sim.es.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 22:34:31 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com>

Sender: Keith Rogers

Reply-To: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com

Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah

Lines: 19

>Pretty slick, that Gorbachev. In one fell swoop he eliminated his old guard >opposition, renewed his popular backing, and made a saint out of his `opponent' >(who happens to have the same aims). Even the Baltic republics are sounding >more conciliatory. Check and mate!

>If you doubt any of this, consider how head of the KGB, the army, and the >Supreme Soviet (all of whom were never actually seen) could be stupid enough >to run a coup so disorganized that they didn't even bother to arrest their >prime opponent before taking over.

And of course they're all so magnanimous as to commit political if not

physical suicide (life in the klinker at the least) so Gorby can consolidate his position which they don't agree with in the least, right? Give me a break. Your Machiavellian fantasies run away with you.

Keith Rogers

Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.

krogers@javelin.sim.es.com

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!orion.oac.uci .edu!ucivax!song From: song@berault.ics.uci.edu (Xiping Song) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: coup seems to be over

Message-ID: <28B2FBE6.7615@ics.uci.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 23:48:54 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com> Reply-To: song@ics.uci.edu (Xiping Song)

Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS

Lines: 21

Nntp-Posting-Host: berault.ics.uci.edu

In article <1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com> markg@cbnewsk.att.com (mark.r.gibaldi) writes: >In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes:

>The other two major causes of the coup failure (in my opinion) would

>seem to be the very talented Political manuvering done by Yeltsin, and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

>Mark R. Gibaldi

>BELL LABS

>Internet: mrg@cblph.att.com or 70531,1170.compuserve.com >CompuServe : 70531,1170

Can you be more specific about this? I am not very impressed with what Yeltsin have done in this coup. I think that he is just lucky.

The coup leaders are too weak. If the coup leaders were really united and

determined to win, he would have been killed or arrested.

Do you remember that, Yeltsin told Majors that "I think that I

do not

have much time left!" in yesterday(?)

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!dibbler.cs.monas h.edu.au!tym From: tym@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au (Tim MacKenzie) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of the Coup) Message-ID: <tym.682818868@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au> Date: 21 Aug 91 23:54:28 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>

Sender: news@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU

Lines: 49

It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin).

It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free.

Either the men who were (apparently) organising the Coup were rather disorganised, or there were other organisers who intended the Coup to fail in order to boost their (inter)national standing. bilaniuk@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Nykolai Bilaniuk) writes:

[...]

>Some of the strange things about the exercise are these:

>- Why didn't they grab both Gorbachev and Yeltsin before announcing the coup, > and kill Gorbachev with a faked heart attack?

>- Why did they allow telephone, electric service, and other utilities to

> continue to the Russian republic's parliament when it was under

siege,

> thus giving Yeltsin a tremendous propaganda boost?

>- Why shut down the anti-coup, anti-imperialist Baltic broadcasts

>These and other factors point out that either the coup conspiracy was >very weak all along, or Gorbachev was the mastermind. I think the >latter theory is unprovable and will remain so (and I don't know whether >I should believe it myself) but it is something to keep in mind.

>We may be able to tell a bit about what really happened (real coup >known to Gorbachev vs a Gorbachev led coup) by how the conspirators

>are treated after the fact, but such information won't be decisive >for reasons already mentioned (a purge is in Gorby's interest). [...]

With many of the worlds leaders (Bush, Major, et al) demanding the restoration of Gorbechev to power, stopping billions in economic aid and preparing

for the return of the cold war, what better thing could happen for the USSR than for these demands to be (apparently) heeded.

a recurrence of this event), democracy to lurch forward, and the political terms of Gorbechev and Yeltsin to increase.

The reformists will now have an excuse to purge the 'hard-line communists' from the party by claiming they supported the Coup and hence were guilty of treason.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!I QTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter)

>What I find more amusing is how conservative-chic it had become to >praise Gorby and for the conservatives to take credit for everything >going on over there...

>Now that the coup is over and has ended (hopefully) happily is that >the "liberal's fault" also? No, now the conservatives around here will >try to reel it all back.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!malgudi!uoft02.utoledo.edu!csupp From: csupp@uoft02.utoledo.edu

coup. I would also like to ask if anyone would like to work together and create a timeline of the events in Mosow and around the CCCP. I would like too get some info on the gang of eight (personal and professional) along with articles and releases by Interfax, media reports (television and radio) by both the American and foreign press corps. Some of the problems are with translations but I think most important documents (Yeltsyn's speech and along with Soviet news agencies) are already translated. If anyone would like to contribute please mail me or post to this group.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!sgi!cdp!ck ruger From: ckruger@cdp.UUCP

Nf-ID: #R:1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.be:1738971384:cdp:1483700013:000:553 Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ckruger Aug 21 10:57:00 1991

>Frankly, folks, the people in Moscow don't give a crap about >your opinions right now. How about stop wastinh everyone's >bandwidth and just listen to history unfolding??

They do care, and have even expressed thanks for the expressions of solidarity that the western world has sent via all routes including email and computer networked conferences such as this one.

I for one have received a thank you from one group in Leningrad for a message that I sent!

/* Written 11:45 am Aug 21, 1991 by christic in cdp:glasnost.news */ /* ---------- "YELTSIN EXPLAINS WHY COUP FAILED" ---------- */ -----------------------------------------------------------------YELTSIN EXPLAINS WHY COUP FAILED

Here is a brief summary of today's broadcast of Vremya, the Soviet nightly news program, carried live by CNN at 2 p.m. EDT.

Vremya said President Gorbachev is now in complete control and is returning to Moscow.

Russian President Boris Yeltsin told the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation this morning that the coup d'etat failed because the Tula paratroop division, which was ordered to seize the Federation's office building, chose to disobey the order. Yeltsin also praised the thousands of Muscovites who surrounded the

Deputies who spoke after Yeltsin's address urged the people to avoid euphoria and remain on guard against future attempts to seize power.

A meeting of the Presidium of the Union Supreme Soviet (the Federal parliament) issued a three-part declaration:

1. The de facto removal of Mikhail Gorbachev as Soviet President is null and void.

2. The Presidium demanded that Acting President Gennady Yenayev nullify all decrees issues by the "Committee on the State of Emergency."

3. The next plenary session of the Supreme Soviet should establish a committee to investigate the legal responsibility of those involved in the attempted coup.

The prosecutor-general of the USSR has initiated legal proceedings against those responsible for unconstitutional acts.

Supreme Soviet Chairman Anatoly Lyukyanov (a long-time friend and ally of Gorbachev who seemed to support the coup) did not chair the meeting of the Presidium because he was en route to Crimea to meet with the President.

Members of the Presidium said that since Monday morning their offices had been flooded by telephone calls and telegrams from officials throughout the country demanding that no steps be taken outside the constitution.

broadcasts yesterday showed there were divisions within the leadership of the attempted coup. Despite the emergency committee's total control over mass media, television still reported bulletins about strikes, demonstrations and the protests of Western governments against the coup.

President Bush has spoken to Gorbachev in the Crimea. According to Bush, Gorbachev expressed his thanks to the people of the United States for their support. Bush said the leaders of the Ukraine and Kazakhstan will remain with Gorbachev in Moscow. -----------------------------------------------------------------Andrew Lang 151251507 CHRISTIC telex Christic Institute christic PeaceNet 202-529-0140 BBS christic@igc.org Internet 202-797-8106 voice uunet!pyramid!cdp!christic UUCP 202-462-5138 fax cdp!christic%labrea@stanford Bitnet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!forney.berkeley.e du!jbuck

Subject: Re: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of the Coup)

References: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> <tym.682818868@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au>

Sender: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <tym.682818868@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au>, tym@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au (Tim MacKenzie) writes: |> It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are

|> Either the men who were (apparently) organising the Coup were rather |> disorganised, or there were other organisers who intended the Coup to |> fail in order to boost their (inter)national standing.

If Gorby and Yeltsin organized the coup, and the whole thing was a fake, please tell me how they recruited the committee. How did they get a group of men at the very top of the bureaucracy to, in effect, toss away their careers for the life in prison or death by firing squad that probably awaits them?

While all the newscasters and even the reports from the Soviet Union portrayed the leaders of the coup as monsters, Stalinists, brutal men, clearly the results don't back that up. They were bureaucrats who wanted to preserve their power and they didn't have the stomach to do what would have been necessary to win.

was so unpopular that they'd be welcomed as saviors and take over without a fight. They miscalculated (and that's an

state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cunixa.cc.co lumbia.edu!dmz1 From: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis)

Reply-To: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis) Organization: Columbia University

I hope this isn't a FAQ, but can anyone give me a clue about the broadcast schedule for radio moscow on the shortwave?

I'd like to know the times and bands where it is broadcast. I'm in the east coast of the US, and I'd most like times that are night for myself. It's been a while since I have tuned in RM, and so I'd like some help if anyone has a schedule.

This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions, or narratives contained herein are not necessarily true, and do not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!ig!indy cms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

>actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin). >It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and >extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free.

Weird because he was surrounded by so many people? The troops et al knew any moves they made would be circulated worldwide. I think they'd have captured Yeltsin if they could have conveniently, but /c so

many witnesses around, they'd have had to really gotten bloody and then a guaranteed civil war would have occurred...

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!cmcl2!adm!lhc!gold!beatty From: beatty@gold.nlm.nih.gov (Charles Beatty)

References: <01G9KO2Z5UCW0001P8@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> <1056@elan.Elan.COM> Sender: usenet@nlm.nih.gov (usenet news poster)

In article <1056@elan.Elan.COM>, lynn@elan.Elan.COM (Lynn Gazis) writes: |> Correction to earlier post: my other email address is lgsax@igc.org

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter)

>Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin, a popular and outspoken Soviet politician, was >elected executive president of the Russian republic on June 13, 1991. He >became the first democratically elected president in Russia's history. Yeltsin >was born on Feb. 1, 1931, in a village in the Sverdlovsk district near the >Ural Mountains. He studied engineering and construction and worked his way up >the Communist party hierarchy. Brought to Moscow from Sverdlovsk by Mikhail >Gorbachev, Yeltsin became (December 1985) head of the Moscow Communist party >organization, but was removed from that post when he broke with Gorbachev in >1987.