19_22_ртуєёЄр_1991_уюфр

Sender: news@netnews.upenn.edu

Lines: 9

Nntp-Posting-Host: eniac.seas.upenn.edu

The National Public Radio network (US) is reporting that the coup is faltering. They have reports that the coup members have tried to flee Moscow via the airport and that a contingent from the Russian Parliament are going to request to see Gorbachev. Any confirmation of this information?

--Dale

dmahoney@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!kapa

From: kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari)

Subject: coup seems to be over

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi>

Sender: news@cc.tut.fi (USENET News System)

Organization: Tampere University of Technology Distribution: talk.politics.soviet

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 13:31:03 GMT

Lines: 15

**** TUNE IN YOUR BEST NEWS SOURCES *****

Latest news as broadcasted by Finnish TV tell that the coup is about to be over. The contradicting info

on the committee memebers tell that they either have

fled Moscow to Crimean or are under arrest.

According to Interfax, Gorbatchev has been reached by phone.

-- --------------------------------------------------------------н---------------kari kankaala, center for scientific computing, espoo, funland

kankaala@csc.fi, kankaala@finfun, fax+358-31-16 26 20, +358-0-457 2239 ------------------------------------------------------------н-----------------Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!pjt

From: pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale)

Subject: Coup retreats? AUG 21st, 14:00 GMT

Message-ID: <PJT.91Aug21161139@vipunen.hut.fi>

Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-PostingнHost: vipunen.hut.fi

Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Distribution: talk

Date: 21 Aug 91 16:11:39

Lines: 21

Yle (the Finnish Broadcasting Company) has real good news now. Moscow's radio has reported that the junta has given up and tried to escape Moscow via airplane. According to the report, the junta was arrested. The Red Army tanks are leaving Moscow.

It seems that all this mess is playing to Yeltsin's hands. He is now immensely popular, and the Red Army can't be used to overthrow him, because the conscript soldiers like him as much as anyone else.

Some foreign countries have recognized Estonia's independency declaration and have formed diplomatic relations with it. THAT's good news. Finland is probably too scared to do this immediately. Maybe the junta tried to swallow too big a feat. I really hope this news is true, and Russia has now a truly democratically elected man in power. But nothing is sure nowadays...

Pekka Taipale

pjt@vipunen.hut.fi

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!skip py.umiacs.umd.edu!ktaylor From: ktaylor@skippy.umiacs.umd.edu (Kenneth Taylor)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: TASS REPORT VIA REUTERS

Message-ID: <38420@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 13:28:32 GMT Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu

Reply-To: ktaylor@umiacs.umd.edu (Kenneth Taylor)

Distribution: talk.politics.soviet

Organization: UMIACS, Univ. of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Lines: 6

NPR just read a report from Reuters quoting Tass. According to Tass, the Soveiet Defense Ministry has ordered all Soviet troops to withdraw from Moscow. If it's true, the coupe is definitely dead.

ken taylor

Path:

relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!fuzzy!ro ot From: root@fuzzy (Operator)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: COUP FAILING, 8 ON PLANE TO KIRGIZIA Message-ID: <19740@darkstar.ucsc.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 13:44:36 GMT

References: <9108211322.AA03864@MIT.EDU>

Sender: usenet@darkstar.ucsc.edu

Reply-To: root@fuzzy (Operator)

Organization: UC Santa Cruz; Division of Social Sciences Lines: 4 NBC reports:

8 made it to plane, on the way to kirgizia

seems like the end of coup?

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!usc!apple!ig!vax.acs.open.ac.uk!AEB_BEVAN From: AEB_BEVAN@vax.acs.open.ac.uk

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: apparent collapse

Message-ID: <TPS-L%91082108394004@INDYCMS.BITNET>

Date: 21 Aug 91 13:08:27 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSнL@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 18

BBC and ITN new in Britain say coup appears on teh point of collapse.

BBC TV showed columns of hundreds of tanks and troop carriers streaming out of Moscow apparently towards barracks.

Official ZIL limousines were seen leaving the Kremlin in packs. BBC has film of these limousines on teh road to Vnukovo airport (the airport used by soviet officials).

In teh last few minutes BBC reports a statement to teh Russian parliament that all the coup leaders have been arrested at Vnukovo; Yeltsin had earlier issued an order for tehir arrets.

The deputy chairman of the KPCCP has demanded to see Gorbachev, saying

that without such a meeting the Soviet Communist party cannot make an assesment of teh events of 19 August.

Edis Bevan

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!ig!ulys ses.att.com!grass From: grass@ulysses.att.com

According to our data:

1) Troops of the Leningrad Garnison have an agreement with

the City Commandant that they will not participate im ongoing events.

2) The building of the City Council is being actively fortified by barricades 3) Around 2AM Mayor Sobchak had a speech in front of defenders

of the City Council. He said that that there is an agreement with most of the Leningrad's factories about today's demonstration and that

it is supported by the Committee of the War Veterans. ---------------------

End of the translation

If anybody does not like quality of my English we may arrange

to send my translations to him first, for editing.

Zhenya Gorokhosvky| gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!newsнserver.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!jtsv16!gil From: gil@jts.com (Gil Hauer )

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Committee in Trouble? Message-ID: <1991Aug21.123050.700@jts.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 12:30:50 GMT References: <5260@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>

Organization: Tech Noir Inc., Toronto, Canada

Lines: 16

In article <5260@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> gak@gakbox.Corp.Sun.COM writes: >According to NPR:

>Yazov has resigned.

>Pavlov is "ill".

>Two down, six to go...is the Emergency Committee in trouble? Sounds like the "Russian Flu" :-)

Gil Hauer gil@jtsv16.jts.com

Tech Noir Inc. { torsqnt | suncan | geac | uunet }!jtsv16!gil Toronto, Ontario, CANADA +1 416 653 8276

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!olivea!apple!ig!vax1.umkc.edu!CDELL From: CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU ("VALENTINE M. SMITH")

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25

Message-ID: <23EC105E60A03198@vax1.umkc.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 14:43:00 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSнL@indycms.bitnet>

Lines: 2

CNN, ABC and NPR all reported that Cuba, Libya and Iraq welcomed the fall of

Gorbachev in numerous reports on 19 August. VMS

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohioнstate.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!henry.ece.cmu.edu!bilaniuk From: bilaniuk@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Nykolai Bilaniuk)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Aftermath of the Coup

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 14:43:15 GMT

Sender: news@fs7.ece.cmu.edu (USENET News System)

Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon Lines: 107

Almost as soon as the coup got underway, CNN had Gari Kasparov on the air saying that the failure of the coup was certain. He was right *if a coup was attempted at all*, and I think there is some room for doubt.

What really happened? Here are some thoughts.

The Soviet Empire cannot be simultaneously united and democratic. That I have maintained before. Democratic sentiments are on the rise among the peoples throughout the USSR, and in all republics but Russia they are explicitly anticolonialist. In Russia herself support for

imperialism is waning too. Whether the West likes it or not, in the minds of members of captive Soviet nations democracy goes hand in hand with decolonialization. The central government has never been keen on supporting individual or national minority rights, and the captive peoples feel that the only way to guarantee either is through political independence from the center. I repeat - we in the West don't have to like that attitude, but it won't go away just because we wish it would. Anti-colonialism will continue to rise in popularity in the USSR.

The Soviet leadership of all persuasions and all levels has long understood that a democratic USSR is impossible, and the most fundamental split among them is between the "unionists" and the "democrats". Some examples: Gorbachev and Kravchuk are moderate unionists, Yanayev and Pugo hardliners. Drach is a moderate democrat, Landsbergis and Khmara are hardliners.

Just about everyone was unhappy with Gorbachev because they know that

his mix of democracy and union is ultimately untenable, and they were afraid that in the end things would settle on the other side of the equation. Gorbachev knew this too, and he needed to do something to boost his popularity with democrats which was suffering because of his bloody crackdowns around the periphery of the empire. Meanwhile the unionists might have felt he was going too far towards letting the periphery slip away.

Now what actually happened in the coup?

We know that the "Grey Committee" that held a news conference and initially included Yanayev, Pugo, Kruchkov, Yazov and others claimed to be taking over because Gorbachev was ill. In fact they kept Gorbachev out of sight and sent tanks into the streets in a very ill-disguised coup. As predicted by Kasparov, Shukhevych, and others, the troops proved unreliable when asked to attack Russians, and the coup (if that's what it was) disintegrated within two days.

Some of the strange things about the exercise are these:

- Why didn't they grab both Gorbachev and Yeltsin before

announcing the coup,

and kill Gorbachev with a faked heart attack?

- Why did they allow telephone, electric service, and other

utilities to

continue to the Russian republic's parliament when it was under

siege,

thus giving Yeltsin a tremendous propaganda boost?

- Why shut down the anti-coup, anti-imperialist Baltic broadcasts

but

not the anti-coup Moscow Echo radio, which was not overtly antiнimperial?

- Why with Yakovlev's resignation and announcement of an impending

coup did Gorbachev not act against the conspiracy preemptively, choosing instead to go to Crimea on vacation? Gorbachev certainly must have known something was afoot but didn't act on it.

These and other factors point out that either the coup conspiracy was very weak all along, or Gorbachev was the mastermind. I think the

latter theory is unprovable and will remain so (and I don't know whether I should believe it myself) but it is something to keep in mind.

If Gorbachev knew about the conspiracy but wasn't party to it, then he must have waited in full confidence that the coup would fail. He was waiting for the excuse to purge those hardliners who lined up against him, thus tightenting his grip on the Communist Party and the Soviet Empire.

If Gorbachev was party to the coup, then he staged it for two reasons. Of minor importance: to boost his dismally bad opinion in the eyes of ordinary Soviet citizens. Of primary importance: to get Western aid flowing, which he had been denied by the G7 but might be granted

"out of necessity" to help him stay in power and "continue the reforms". Of course he may yet double-cross his hardline coнconspirators by purging them anyway.

We may be able to tell a bit about what really happened (real coup known to Gorbachev vs a Gorbachev led coup) by how the

conspirators are treated after the fact, but such information won't be decisive for reasons already mentioned (a purge is in Gorby's interest).

There are a couple of lessons to be learned from this episode. First of all, a bright spot:

There were predictions that amid an economic mess, the Soviet peoples would support an alternative leadership that would restore order, even if it had to be done in a Stalinist way. Now we know that they are not that stupid.

The dark clouds on the horizon:

In the long run, a failed coup and restoration of Gorbachev to power

increase, not decrease, the risk of war within the USSR. This is because the stakes will have been raised for both sides. The "unionist" Gorbachev's prestige in the West will increase, leading to more aid which translates

into a greater subsidy for the Soviet military and internal security machine. Any domestic popularity boost will be shortнlived. On the other hand,

the coup episode will strengthen the conviction in the peripheral republics that the center cannot be trusted, and that only independence can assure basic human rights. Thus we are setting the stage for a later clash.

At the time of writing, Gorbachev hasn't yet resurfaced. Nor have I yet

read what has been written on the net in the last few days; I just came

back from a trip.

Nick

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!usc!apple!ig!cs.umd.edu!biow From: biow@CS.UMD.EDU (Christopher Biow)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: U.S. ambassador to the USSR

Message-ID: <9108211425.AA20729@sonne.cs.UMD.EDU>

Date: 21 Aug 91 14:25:46 GMT

References: <sharon@UNIXLAND.NATICK.MA.US>

<9108201951.AA18989@sonne.cs.UMD.EDU> Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-

L@indycms.bitnet> Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk.,

MD 20742 (pronto)

Lines: 9

Mea culpa. I had intended to send an e-mail message to you, and hit the wrong key.

Actually, the bandwidth question may be moot. One netter told me that the Finnish site which provides the link

for Demos is no longer forwarding t.p.s.

My apologies,

Chris

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!mips!apple!ig!vax.acs.open.ac.uk!AEB_BEVAN

From: AEB_BEVAN@vax.acs.open.ac.uk

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Big Brother

Message-ID: <TPS-L%91082109523237@INDYCMS.BITNET> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:17:42 GMT

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSнL@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 14

Someone asked whether it is safe to discuss net details here.

The Baltics Republics list ha salways assumed that it is tapped by the KGB. We make a policy point of not identifying sources during crisis periods. We started as a means of setting up nets but ceased publicising net addresses in january.

Some of the blith chattering on other lists the last couple of days

has horrifed us. I have no doubt taht if the coup had succeeded list archives would have provided good clues for purges in teh USSR.

Edis Bevan

BALT-L editor

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!ifi.uio.no!geirha From: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: The demonstration: LINK FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.2.682784842.geirha@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:27:22 GMT

Sender: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge)

Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 77

Nntp-Posting-Host: holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no

Originator: geirha@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no

LINK FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY

Version 1.1

This is a suggestion for an international demonstration for peace and democracy. It is initiated to support Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and the democatic forces in the Soviet.

The demonstration is arranged as a link (rope/cord) of flowers, flags,

and catchwords for peace and democracy.

The link goes across the border of the worlds countries and into the Soviet.

People are running a kind of relay race along the link, carrying flowers and letters with pray for peace and democracy in the Soviet and the rest of the world. The flowers and peace-letters are relay-race-carried to Moscow and other cities in the Soviet. Peacegroups are initiated at the Universities, and the electronic mail-system is used to get fast communication between mainнpeacegroups in different countries.

There should be one main-peacegroup in each country, located at the largest University of the capital city. The peacegroups are named as PEACEGROUP

OF <COUNTRY NAME>, and should have a unique e-mail address. If possible, the e-mail-address should contain the name: peacelink. This is to make it easy to guess the address. The electronic mailнaddress for the PEACEGROUP OF NORWAY is peacelink@ifi.uio.no. Our peacegroup is located at the University of Oslo, Norway.

To save time, the main-peacegroups of each country do only communicate with the main-peacegroups in border-countries. - Such countries as the UK may communicate with France accross the sea. Thus: An end of the link in the UK may send flowers and peaceнletters over the English Channel to a start of the link in the France, and the PEACEGROUP OF BRITAIN communicate by electronic mail with the PEACEGROUP OF FRANCE to get this work.

In Norway we seeks contact with the PEACEGROUP OF SWEDEN and the

PEACEGROUP OF FINLAND. (One link may go from Norway to Sweden and over to Denmark. Another link may go through Finland to the Soviet, another link may go from Norway to Murmansk).

Each main-peacegroup is responsible for distributing the work to different organizations in their countries. Organizations may be such as Peaceorganizations, Christian organizations, Sports organizations, etc..

Each organization or subgroup of an organization gets the responsibility for a part of the link. They get people to make and join the link, and people to run the relay-race along the link. Each individual that take part in the work on the link is responsible for making say 20 or 30 metres of the link, and meet at a specific location and time to connect his/her link with the nearby part of the link. Thus the link grows across the borders of the different countries and into the Soviet.

When the link has to go along or across the roads, one must remember to seek advice at the traffic police, to be sure not to disturb the traffic.

The catchwords should not focus directely on Lithuania and such conflicts.

This is because it may made things worse. The catchwords should say that military forces cannot be used against democrately elected politicians.

It could be difficult to make such a long link. Pleace suggest solutions.

Ideas could be sent to actual news-groups/bulletine boards, such as talk.politics.soviet, soc.culture.soviet, eunet.politics, bit.listserv.politics, etc..

If someone find that this text is unreadable due to bad english, then pleace correct the errors and change the version number just after the heading.

Pleace take part in this demonstration, and spread this text to the other news-groups/bulletine boards.

The last news could indicate that the coupmakers are weakened a little,

but don't let the vultures breath. We must be ready to give the democratic

forces in Soviet unlimited support.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!think.com!mintaka!bloomнpicayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!pesetsk From: pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: <none>

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.145832.7816@athena.mit.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 14:58:32 GMT

References: <ABtpHieGA0@jumbo.hq.demos.su> <1991Aug21.005523.2705@husc3.harvard.edu>

Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system)

Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Lines: 9

Nntp-Posting-Host: e40-008-8.mit.edu

In article <1991Aug21.005523.2705@husc3.harvard.edu>

gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky) writes: >Translation of the Posting from DEMOS, Leningrad

>Leningrad 22.20

>Headlines:

> ...

>Pskov Divison is already in Leningrad. Big House [I guess that >is City Council, ZG] is surrounded.

The "Big House" (Bol'shoj Dom) is KGB headquarters in Leningrad. Xref: relcom talk.politics.misc:13152 misc.headlines:3529 talk.politics.soviet:3929 alt.activism:3660

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!convex!tighe From: tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activis m

Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:05:40 GMT

References: <bxr307.682670029@coombs> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account)

Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Texas Lines: 15

Nntp-Posting-Host: convex1.convex.com

In article <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com>

rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com (Dennis Rivard) writes:

>Has anyone noticed that many of the people that are now saying "If we

>had only helped him more, this wouldn't have happened" are the same

>ones that said "We shouldn't help them until we see more reforms"????

I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't

meddle into the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But the USSR is different...

+--------------------------------------------+

|Mike Tighe, tighe@convex.com, (214) 497-4206| +-----------------н--------------------------+

Xref: relcom talk.politics.misc:13153 misc.headlines:3530 talk.politics.soviet:3930 alt.activism:3661 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!usc!hela!wotan.iti.org!scs From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activis m

Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!

Message-ID: <scs.682787092@wotan.iti.org>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:04:52 GMT

References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <bxr307.682670029@coombs> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> Sender: usenet@iti.org (Hela News Manager)

Organization: Industrial Technology Institute

Lines: 18

Nntp-Posting-Host: wotan.iti.org

rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com (Dennis Rivard) writes:

>In article <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU

(Matthew DeLuca) writes:

>Has anyone noticed that many of the people that are now saying "If we

>had only helped him more, this wouldn't have happened" are the same >ones that said "We shouldn't help them until we see more reforms"????

>Food for thought...

I'll bite. No, I haven't noticed that. In fact, it seems more the opposite. Yesterday on the radio (NPR) I heard someone saying "I

was right, we shouldn't have given them anything." Sorry, didn't catch

the name. Can you site a specific person who did that backpedal? --

Simmons' Law Of Volunteerism (iterate as needed):

`Whoever said ``Whoever said ```Lead, follow, or get out of the way!''' didn't understand the circumstances'' didn't understand the circumstances.'

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Big Brother

Message-ID: <TPS-L%91082110071530@INDYCMS.BITNET>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:03:56 GMT

References: <AEB_BEVAN@VAX.ACS.OPEN.AC.UK>

Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com

Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPSнL@indycms.bitnet> Lines: 24

On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 15:17:42 +0100 <AEB_BEVAN@VAX.ACS.OPEN.AC.UK> said: >Someone asked whether it is safe to discuss net details here.

>The Baltics Republics list ha salways assumed that it is tapped by the >KGB. We make a policy point of not identifying sources during

>crisis periods. We started as a means of setting up nets but ceased >publicising net addresses in january.

>Some of the blith chattering on other lists the last couple of >days

>has horrifed us. I have no doubt taht if the coup had succeeded >list archives would have provided good clues for purges in teh USSR. >

>Edis Bevan

>BALT-L editor

Gee, so would the .sig files included by those posting from the USSR, no? When mailing & street addresses are posted, I have no doubts but what that would be pretty easy to use to find those persons. I would have thought those addresses would have been removed by those in the USSR before sending anything out. Chattering aside, the biggest risk was being increased by leaving that information on.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.153020.10019@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:30:20 GMT

References: <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu>

Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 14

In article <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes: }> While Cube, Iraq, the PLO and Libya applauded the fall of Gorbachev

}

} I'd like some background qualifiers to this statement.

} especially other than %@#^!

I read this an AP and UPI yesterday. Amidst much cheering. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily

represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts,

however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone. jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or

meritt%aplvm.BITNET

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!mcnc!rt i!mozart.unx.sas.com!vm.sas.com!snoszb From: SNOSZB@vm.sas.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Message-ID: <91233.105542SNOSZB@vm.sas.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 14:55:42 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.123858.18454@hubcap.clemson.edu>

<1991Aug20.150116.18107@news.nd.edu>

Organization: SAS Institute Inc.

Lines: 8

Sanjeev Banerjia

5140 Lundy Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 USA

voice (919)-859-9740

fax (919)-677-8123 (address to me at Building E, room 242) snoszb@mvs.sas.com

sanjeev@unx.sas.com

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!new s From: minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!

Keywords: foreign intervention

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> Date: 21 Aug 91 16:01:06 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com>

Sender: news@leland.Stanford.EDU (Mr News)

Organization: DSG, Stanford University

Lines: 29

In article <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) writes:

[original elided]

> I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle into > the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other

> countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But

> the USSR is different...

> --

> +--------------------------------------------+

> |Mike Tighe, tighe@convex.com, (214) 497-4206|

> +--------------------------------------------+

Although this thread seems to be wandering from politics.soviet, I can't resist pointing out the differences between

1) humanitarian aid and military aid;

2) aid to a government and aid to anti-government underground [dare we mention covert actions?];

3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid to a repressive dictatorship.

These are not unimportant distinctions. ****************************

* Eric Minch---------------Disclaimer: These are my opinions, not my

* Epistemic Artisan-------- employer's (after all, they're * Stanford Genetics Dept.-- free!) ****************************

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!helium!helium!hthompso From: hthompso@watt.uk.ac.edinburgh (Henry Thompson)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Please time-stamp your translations

Message-ID: <HTHOMPSO.91Aug21111918@watt.uk.ac.edinburgh>

Date: 21 Aug 91 10:19:18 GMT

Sender: news@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Network News Administrator) Distribution: talk

Organization: /u0/sip/hthompson/.organization

Lines: 8

Many thanks to those translating and re-broadcasting the russian posting to this group, but their utility to the rest of us will be vastly increased if you include the timestamp of the original as the first line of your translation.

Henry Thompson, Department of Artificial Intelligence, University of Edinburgh 80 South Bridge, Edinburgh EH1 1HN, Scotland Telephone: 031 650-4440

ARPA: hthompson%edinburgh@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk JANET: hthompson@uk.ac.edinburgh Path:

relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!fuzzy!ro ot From: root@fuzzy (Operator)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: GORBY

Message-ID: <19744@darkstar.ucsc.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 16:09:51 GMT

References: <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu>

<1991Aug21.153020.10019@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>

Sender: usenet@darkstar.ucsc.edu

Reply-To: root@fuzzy (Operator)

Organization: UC Santa Cruz; Division of Social Sciences

Lines: 1

GORBY SAID TO BE FLYING BACK TO MOSCOW!

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!cs.wvu.wvnet.edu!wvnvms.wvnet. edu!un033324 From: un033324@wvnvms.wvnet.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: ex

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.074917.1741@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:50:40 GMT

Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing Lines: 5

According to CNN Daywatch, the Group of 8 (Coup d'etat ers) is fleeing to the

official moscow airport. Yeltsyn pleads that they must be stopped and brought to trial.

Just thought I'd give the good news:)

Avery Glasser

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!inews!hopi!bhoughto From: bhoughto@hopi.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25

Message-ID: <5904@inews.intel.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:59:51 GMT

References: <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu>

Sender: news@inews.intel.com

Organization: Intel Corp, Chandler, AZ

Lines: 15

In article <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes: >> While Cube, Iraq, the PLO and Libya applauded the fall of Gorbachev

> I'd like some background qualifiers to this statement.

> especially other than %@#^!

Can't remember which of the poli-chat shows I saw it on (all

the networks and CNN are doing nightly reports, getting their money's worth for their staff in Moscow), but Cuba is "reserving judgment" on the coup, and hopes that "western imperialism" doesn't gain from it; I heard nothing about Lybia; Iraq claims to have INSTIGATED the coup... :-)

--Blair

"That Saddam. Such a kidder." Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!ig!untv ax.bitnet!IH04 From: IH04@untvax.bitnet

Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu

Organization: WSOM CSG, CWRU, Cleve. OH

Lines: 15

X-Post-Machine: pyrite.som.cwru.edu

Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.som.cwru.edu

CBS has just affirmed some of the earliers posts...

- The Soviet Parliament has re-affirmed the Gorbmeister in his

job

- The Committee has fled, and it is rumored that one of the

members

has committed suicide (this is only a rumor)

Michael C. Sidman | sidmanm@pyrite.som.cwru.edu Electrical Engineering and Applied Physics |____________________________ Case Western Reserve University | "Cleveland - it's not hell, Cleveland, Ohio 44106 | but a damn good simulation." Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsl!sethr

From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.165038.4999@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 16:50:38 GMT

References: <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu> <5904@inews.intel.com>

Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

Lines: 29

In article <5904@inews.intel.com>, bhoughto@hopi.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:

> In article <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu>

"talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes: > >> While Cube, Iraq, the PLO and Libya applauded the fall of

Gorbachev

> >

> > I'd like some background qualifiers to this statement.

> > especially other than %@#^!

> Can't remember which of the poli-chat shows I saw it on (all

> the networks and CNN are doing nightly reports, getting their

> money's worth for their staff in Moscow), but Cuba is "reserving

> judgment" on the coup, and hopes that "western imperialism"

> doesn't gain from it; I heard nothing about Lybia; Iraq claims

> to have INSTIGATED the coup... :-)

> --Blair

> "That Saddam. Such a kidder."

CNN was running a picture showing the official Baghdad daily newspaper running front page news articles welcoming the coup and congratulating the "victors". They also quoted Khadaffy. Seems like Soviet arms didn't do either of them much good in the long run. They work real

well on Kurds though. Also Chadis.

Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own, not my employers'.

Xref: relcom talk.politics.misc:13154 talk.politics.soviet:3942 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!agate!jym From: jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! (Meta-Comment)

Message-ID: <JYM.91Aug21100507@remarque.berkeley.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 18:05:07 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com>

Sender: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Organization: The Naughty Peahen Party Line

Lines: 4

In-Reply-To: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com's message of 21 Aug 91 11: 27:03 GMT

=+= Um, why was this discussion dragged into alt.activism and misc.headlines? How about keeping talk.politics threads in the talk.politics groups, where they belong?

<_Jym_>

Xref: relcom soc.culture.soviet:897 talk.politics.soviet:3943 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (Industrial Poet)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Baltics News on soc.rights.human Message-ID: <500171w164w@mantis.co.uk>

Date: 21 Aug 91 14:33:15 GMT

References: <35161@usc.edu>

Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

Lines: 17

kriz@skat.usc.edu (KRIZ) writes:

> Would like to inform the readerships that statements from the Baltics > republics are being posted on the group "soc.rights.human" This is

> because the gateway at ucbvax appears to relay messages to s.r.h.

> but apparently not to talk.politics.soviet and

soc.culture.soviet.

People unable to post to soc.culture.soviet via ucbvax should now be able to post via us; mail to soc-culture-soviet@mantis.co.uk rather than soc-culture-soviet@ucbvax.berkeley.edu.

This is a temporary measure until ucbvax starts relaying; we're on UUCP, so no enormous (>32K) messages please.

mathew

Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3944 soc.culture.soviet:898 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (Industrial Poet)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet

Subject: Important note for people posting messages from the USSR Message-ID: <2LB272w164w@mantis.co.uk>

Date: 21 Aug 91 15:02:00 GMT

Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

Lines: 22

People have been (quite rightly) removing the names of individuals from messages they have been posting.

Please also consider removing the names of organizations -- i.e. delete any references to which network the message used to get to you, and don't mention exactly which organization it was sent from. If the authorities in the USSR find out about Usenet, we don't want them saying "Ah, ***** in Moscow, let's go and pay them a little visit..."

So limit references to "Someone working in Moscow", "Someone in Leningrad" or similar. We can restore the attributions when the emergency is over.

Just to add to the list, people can send me surface mail at Mantis Consultants, Unit 56, St John's Innovation Centre, Cambridge. CB4 4WS. UK. I'll forward any relevant messages to these newsgroups. My girlfriend can translate from Russian if necessary, I'm sure she'll be willing to help...

mathew

[ I'll give a fax number if anyone thinks it'll help... ]

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!hela!aws From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-ID: <1991Aug21.170742.12797@iti.org> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:07:42 GMT References: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> Distribution: talk.politics.soviet

Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

Lines: 20

In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes:

>The apparent reason for the coup not to have succeeded seems to >be the nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans and the >Russian parliament,

I disagree. The reason for the failure of the coup was the

incompetance

of the committee. If Stalin (for example) lead the coup both Gorby and Yeltzin would have died early on Aug. 19. Control of communications would have been better, and it would have worked. Let's not draw the wrong lesson from all this.

Allen

-н+----------------------------------------------------------------н----------+ |Allen W. Sherzer | I was sad when I had no shoes until I saw a man with no | | aws@iti.org | feet. Then I said "Hey, got any shoes you don't need?". | +----------------------------------------------------------------н----------+ Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!convex!tighe From: tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Keywords: foreign intervention

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 17:14:36 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account)

Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Texas Lines: 36

Nntp-Posting-Host: convex1.convex.com

In article <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> (Eric Minch) writes: >In article <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> (Mike Tighe) writes:

>> I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle into >> the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other

>> countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But >> the USSR is different...

> Although this thread seems to be wandering from politics.soviet, I can't

> resist pointing out the differences between

No problem, I will bring it back in.

> 1) humanitarian aid and military aid;

Soldiers eat too.

> 2) aid to a government and aid to anti-government underground

El Salvador, Nam, Philipines, etc., are the governments.

> [dare we mention covert actions?];

> 3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid to a repressive

> dictatorship.

Surely you jest when you imply that the Gorby regime is a popular constitutional government, and not a repressive dictatorship. I mean, Gorby

is not popular with anybody except Westerners, and they don't vote for his election, but then neither does the average Soviet. And the last time I was living in the USSR I would have said it was pretty repressive.

-Mike

+--------------------------------------------+

|Mike Tighe, tighe@convex.com, (214) 497-4206| +-----------------н--------------------------+

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!sno wden From: snowden@hemlock.cray.com

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Latest news

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.111925.3174@hemlock.cray.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 16:19:25 GMT

Reply-To: snowden@hemlock.cray.com () Organization: Cray Research, Inc., Eagan, MN Lines: 3

Soviet Embassy in UK announced the coup is over.

Tass reports that Mikhail Gorbachov has been reinstated.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!sno wden From: snowden@hemlock.cray.com

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Latest snippets

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.112635.4427@hemlock.cray.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 16:26:35 GMT

Reply-To: snowden@hemlock.cray.com () Organization: Cray Research, Inc., Eagan, MN Lines: 4

17:23 BST 21 August 1991

Very close and senior adviser to Yeltsin announced that Gorbachov will

be coming back (as leader) tonight to Moscow.

Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3949 soc.culture.soviet:900 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!lamont!vadim From: vadim@ldgo.columbia.edu (vadim levin)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet

Subject: Moscow Echo

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.154057.14937@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 15:40:57 GMT

Sender: news@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu

Organization: Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory

Lines: 10

I just got that from Moscow via Israel :

Tol'ko chto soobxheno ob areste putchistov (Exo Moskvy so ssylkoj na France Press, 16:00 MSK).

Which means ( for those who doesn't read in quazi-russian): RAdiostation "Moscow Echo" quoted Franse Press as saying that

USSR has almost calmed down again. I will continue to post to RUSSIA AND Val-L, the latter because of the huge volume of my readers who did not want to sub to RUSSIA or TPS-L.

Several media report Gorbachev has been reinstated as Prsident, with CNN reporting at 1300 CDT that the Supreme Soviet had taken this action, plus lifted press and demonstration restrictions ordered by the "Gang of Eight." Defense Minister is reported a suicide, Pavlov in hospital and Yanayev in

the Crimea or both. George Bush reported he had spoken with Gorbachev by phone. Soviet tanks are reported leaving Moscow, with the death toll in last night's clashes raised to four, one a "foreigner." The Moscow prosecutor reports that the Gang of Eight is "under investigatiun." Strauss is in place

as US Ambassador, and may present his credentials to Gorbachev as early as this evening. The Supreme Soviet is to meet 26 August. Telephone links have been restored to the Baltics, no word on the "center's" reactions on Baltic declaration. Gorbachev is to visit the Russian Parliament building, while

to the people's vigilance and defiance. Yeltsin revealed that Kryuchkov had invited him to go with him to meet with Gorbachev, he refused. The army continues to leave. It needs to shake down, but the crisis appears to be over for the moment. VMS