Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!icd.ab.com!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!klimas
From: klimas@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.152344.5444@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com>
Date: 21 Aug 91 20:23:43 GMT
References:
<1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Lines: 16
In
article <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric
Minch) writes:
> In
article <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> tighe@convex.com (Mike
Tighe)
> Although this thread seems to be wandering from politics.soviet, I
can't resist
> pointing out the differences between
> 1) humanitarian aid and military aid;
> 2)
aid to a government and
aid to anti-government underground [dare we mention
> covert actions?];
> 3)
aid to a popular
constitutional government and aid to
a repressive
> dictatorship.
> These are not unimportant distinctions.
Not to
waste precious
net bandwidth, but
based upon
actual experiences, the
leaders of the Baltics have said, themselves
in need of aid, the
aid should not be given as long as the KGB can divert the goods to their
own cause, medicine to their own people or onto the
black market, or use
the distribution
of food
as a source of
intimidation and
prolong
the people's agony under a decrepit system.
Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!s5!joec
From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Coup is over, Gorby on way back to Moscow ...
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.182609.13671@fid.morgan.com>
Date: 21 Aug 91 18:26:09 GMT
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Lines: 24
Yeltsin has addressed the Soviet Legislators and Gorby has
talked with Pres Yeltsin
and Pres Bush. Says he is fine and many of coup leaders are with Gorby at his
dacha. Gorby then said he was on way home. Gorby says he is in control
All press
curbs lifted,
all coup decrees
are rescinded
and declared null and
void. Yeltsin says he controls all
of USSR military in
absence of Gorby. Gorby not yet shown on TV or
heard on radio. Gorby expected in Moscow within 24 hours according to
some sources and much sooner according to others.
Yelstin and Gorby express thanks for support of US.
It appears over.....
Whew!
joec@morgan.com
TIP: Time, Newsweek and US NEWS and WORLD REPORT completely
missed the
coup since
they publish on Friday. I suspect the
upcoming issue on this Friday will be a collectors
issue.
Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!s5!joec
From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Anybody
want penpals
in Soviet
Union? Message-ID:
<1991Aug21.182955.13794@fid.morgan.com> Date: 21 Aug
91 18:29:55 GMT
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY Lines: 10
My family has corresponded
with a family in the Soviet Union for
the last 2 years and its been a good experience all around.
Our friends are in Moscow -
can't wait to hear their view of what happened during the coup and in the
streets...
If you are interested in finding your own penpal in the
Soviet Union, email me and I will send you details.
Joe Collins
joec@morgan.com
Path: relcom!fuug!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!ifi.uio.no!geirha
From: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: The demonstration:
LINK FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY MessageID: <CMM.0.90.2.682804638.geirha@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no>
Date: 21 Aug 91 19:57:18 GMT
Sender: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge)
Organization: Dept. of
Informatics, University of
Oslo, Norway Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no
Originator: geirha@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no
Due to
the stabilization in the
Soviet, and the restoration of
Gorbachev, the demonstration:
LINK FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY is
cancelled. (The project was a private one, and has now finished). Millions of
congratulations to the Soviet people.
Yours Sincerely,
Geir Egil Hauge
Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!shamash!duke!jrd From:
jrd@duke.cdc.com (john r douglas x6668)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Summary:
FAIRS
Keywords: Foundation for Amateur International Servise (FAIRS)
Message-ID: <36005@shamash.cdc.com>
Date: 21 Aug 91 14:46:28 GMT
References: <35158@usc.edu> <1991Aug20.182116.1621@amd.com>
Sender: usenet@shamash.cdc.com
Reply-To: jrd@mips.COM (john r douglas
x6668)
Organization: CDC Arden Hills, MN
Lines: 36
clark@brahms.amd.com (Brad D. Clark)
posts:
>Another thought, if
someone could get them in, Ramsey has their
500mW
>FM broadcast
transmitters available in the US. Someone ought
to look into >perhaps getting them into the USSR????
I just returned from the USSR, along with David Larsen of VPI
from a month in the USSR.
During the trip we distributed 9 PC's,
several HF tranceivers and the equipment
required to
bring 9 digitial radio
stations on the air. We received the support of
RSF and
Aeroflot and many Soviet officials in the course of
this trip.
This was
all equipment donated by
IBM, CDC,
PACCOM and
many individuals across
the US. We have
formed a
new non
profit organization to promote ventures like this one in the future.
Information about FAIRS will appear in QST (a radio mag),
CQ WIA Magazine in Australia, EUDXF mag in Europe. Anyone who
might like information please let
me know.
on a personal note:
I am very proud of the actions of our Soviet friends who
took a
stand, at no small danger to themselves, to protect
this movement toward a better and safer world.
John *--*--*--*--*--*-*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
*
*
*
* John
Douglas *
This space left blank * *
Arden Hills, MN *
except for line above *
* Control Data Corp. *
"
" "
"
*
*
* " "
" "
* *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
* Disclaimer:
I never said that ! I never even
* *
thought that. But I sure as hell agree!!
* *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf85
1
From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Co. Alksnis on Nightline
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.203539.2812@newshost.anu.edu.au>
Date: 21 Aug 91 20:35:39 GMT
References: <1991Aug21.044151.2414@unixland.natick.ma.us>
Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au
Organization: Computer
Services Centre,
Australian National
University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 133
In article <1991Aug21.044151.2414@unixland.natick.ma.us>
sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: >The
so-called "dark colonel," Col. Viktor Alksnis,
appeared on ABC-TV's >Nightline
news program this morning. [...]
>Anyway ... if you saw an earlier posting about Col. Alksnis,
you know that >he outlined a program in a magazine article that
called for a state of >emergency for six months at least to restore order
in the Soviet Union, >among other things.
>
>Well, tonight he said
that the disruption of the signing of the
new union >treaty was a
"positive" step because it preserved
the USSR. However, when
>asked if he endorsed the new committee,
he said this
committee differed
>from HIS plan because his plan
required a committee to be set up by >constitutional means, by the Supreme
Soviet. He believes action by the >Soviet legislature
is still needed to give this committee legitimacy.
This wimpishness
by one
of the "black
colonels" is very
significant.
There was a similar
interview by the Australian (ethnic) Special
Broadcasting Service, probably later than the ABC interview, which showed this
fascist
rat trying to distance himself even further from the coup.
He was
asked why Yeltsin had not
been deposed as President
of Russia. He
replied that
Yeltsin was legally elected
and had Parliamentary
immunity from arrest, even though his proclamations were
"destabilizing" etc. (Translation:
Alksnis hopes
his own parliamentary
immunity will keep him out of gaol)
He was
then asked how Yeltsin as
President of Russia could be immune
when Gorbachev
had been deposed as President of
the USSR.
He replied that the emergency committee had a written statement
from Gorbachev that he had resigned due to ill health, so it was not a matter of deposing or arresting him (which would be
illegal).
He was then asked whether
he expected anyone either in the Soviet Union or outside it to seriously
believe that. He replied that it
might well
turn out that Gorbachev
had been forced to resign, nevertheless the emergency committee did claim to
have that piece of paper.
I think this sheds a lot of
light on the irresolute character of
the coup (which doomed it from the start, although its fate
was not sealed until it
became clear that Leningrad and other centers
would resist and the army was unable to enter
Leningrad).
The junta
considered it necessary to offer its supporters a legal figleaf
so that if the coup failed they could pretend
that they had only been following the orders of what they believed
to be the legally constituted
authority. This implies that they were
weak from the start, and preferred
to make
defeat virtually certain rather than ask their supporters to risk all.
This seemingly
absurd approach resembles the earlier coup in
the Baltics in which the
emergency committees simply faded away when
Gorbachev failed to back them. Those responsible were NOT arrested and
punished then and they hope
to retain
their entrenched positions in the Ministry of
Defence, KGB and elsewhere this time too, after having mounted an even
more serious armed demonstration or show of force.
There are
reports that Shevardnadze has said he "hoped Gorbachev was the
victim, not the instigator".
Given the
Byzantine character of Soviet politics it will probably be a while before the
full circumstances become clear.
But the uncharacteristically resolute stand taken by
the democrats this time makes it
look as though the whole thing was grotesquely miscalculated.
From the
start, Yeltsin
took the
high ground
as legally
constituted and democratically
elected authority, declaring
the emergency committee
illegal and ordering all Union military
and KGB forces
on Russian territory to accept his temporary
command until the constitutional Union authorities could be restored.
This while the
Western press and Western Governments
were initially treating
the coup as a fait accompli and discussing their
future relations with the "new leadership" (and similar
reactions in this newsgroup).
Having initially characterized the junta as
"state criminals" and
ordered the prosecution of anyone
following their orders, Yeltsin maintained
that position consistently in demanding
their arrest when
they fled from the Kremlin. Whatever "compromise" the
junta was hoping for when they
refrained from
the resolute measures necessary for a coup
to succeed, they were
offered no compromise whatever and now
face humiliating defeat.
As I
said when the coup started (and was thought by most to have ended),
it is
to be hoped that the democrats will
proceed to ARREST
supporters
of the
coup. However
there is STILL
an ambiguous
situation regarding both
the Army and the KGB and it still remains
to be seen whether they
will
or will not be thoroughly purged this time.
The Ministry of Defence accepted orders from the
junta and
refused to
accept Yeltsin's decree.
But when the
crunch came (perhaps
after events in Leningrad already established
that the coup
would be defeated or could
only result in full scale civil
war if continued),
they did
NOT open fire on the people and thus compelled the junta to abandon the coup
and flee.
Thus there is a situation a bit similar to the
Phillipines where Aquino came to power as a result of the Army top brass
rallying to her side rather than by defeating it. Although there are important
differences
(e.g. there
is no parallel to the U.S. backing Marcos
and then shifting that backing to Aquino, and the Soviet Union
is not
a U.S. neocolony
like the Phillipines) it is quite
possible that important
elements of the Army
and KGB will retain their positions in the new
regime.
Aquino was subjected to a further series of coups and
coup threats and things have still not entirely settled down.
If the
democrats fail to thoroughly purge their opponents in the most ruthless
("Stalinist" :-) way there
will be
continuing
problems.
Yeltsin's stand offers some hope that they will take
the necessary measures, but it remains to be seen what Gorbachev will
do. Also there
was a
very strong
emphasis on
"Constitutionalism" in
Yeltsin's position (and in U.S. and other Western support) whereas what
is really
needed is at LEAST the kind of
revolutionary ruthlessness that
allowed Abraham Lincoln to tell
the Supreme Court where to
get off when he was conducting a civil war.
After all Alknis DOES have Parliamentary immunity and
DOES belong in gaol.
Likewise if
a proper legal defence of
MOST of
the Ministry of Defence and
KGB people is permitted they SHOULD
be acquitted on grounds of reasonable doubt as to whether they
were participating
in a
treasonable conspiracy or carrying out the orders
of what appeared
to be
the properly
constituted Government
after Gorbachev's
"resignation". Who is a
Ministry of Defence or KGB
official to believe
about the
President's health - his own Vice-President,
Prime Minister
and other
Cabinet members or some ranting provincial
politician like Yeltsin?
Clearly what is required is prompt incarceration
rather than legal proceedings, but whether our "anti-Stalinist"
colleagues have the stomache for it remains to be seen.
Path:
relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!emory!att!cbnewsm!cbnewsk!markg From:
markg@cbnewsk.att.com (mark.r.gibaldi)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: coup seems to be over
Message-ID:
<1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com>
Date: 21 Aug 91 20:45:35 GMT
References:
<1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi>
<1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi>
Organization: AT&T
Bell Laboratories
Lines: 33
In article
<1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes: >
>-- as reported by the Finnish TV 10 minutes ago
(15.00 GMT) ---> (interesting news info deleted)
>
>The apparent reason for the coup not to have
succeeded seems to >be the
nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans
and the >Russian parliament, with Boris Yeltsin at the center.
The victims >of last night have reinforced the opposition.
It would seem to me to be a combination of many
things, one of the more important
being the reluctance of the military to use force. Has anyone noticed
in the CNN reports from Tuesday night
(usa) that those
soldiers standing outside the disabled troop
carrier seemed surprisingly
reluctant to use their weapons. I say that
relative to how easily they have used them in the Baltics.
Not to mention the many reports of military units refusing to obey
orders to go on
the offensive.
The other
two major causes of the coup failure (in
my opinion) would seem to be the very talented Political manuvering
done by Yeltsin, and the
support given by the Soviet populace to the anticoup faction.
** This is my opinion and you are still quite welcome
to your own. ** ** all flames via e-mail please **
Mark R. Gibaldi
BELL LABS
Internet: mrg@cblph.att.com or
70531,1170.compuserve.com CompuServe : 70531,1170
Path:
relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!usc!apple!ig!scutum.ece.cmu.edu!mes
From: mes@SCUTUM.ECE.CMU.EDU (Mark Edward Stahl)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Kasparov on Tonight Show
Message-ID:
<9108212014.AA00810@scutum.ece.cmu.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 20:14:15 GMT
References:
<TPS-L%91082106382436@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com
Reply-To:
"talk.politics.soviet
via ListServ"
<TPSL@indycms.bitnet>
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering,
Carnegie Mellon Lines: 17
In article
<TPS-L%91082106382436@INDYCMS.BITNET> you write:
>
>BTW. If
anyone wants a list of Fax
numbers for
major media offices,
>let me know. I have one that came off Peace
Net back about
six months
>ago. There are
probably a
couple hundred numbers on
the list, or I >would just go ahead and post it.
>
>
>
/+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++\
>! Later
+ Systems Programmer !
>! Gary
Warner +
Samford University Computer
Services !
>!
+
II TIMOTHY
2:15 !
> \+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++/
Could you please forward me a copy of the list.
Thnak you.
-- mark
Xref:
relcom talk.politics.misc:13150
misc.headlines:3526 talk.politics.soviet:3858 alt.activism:3658
Path:
relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherok
ee!helena!steven
From: steven@helena ( Steve Novak
#3000 x2110 )
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activis m
Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!
Message-ID:
<1991Aug21.202152.10232@cherokee.uswest.com>
Date: 21 Aug 91 20:21:52 GMT
References:
<35130@hydra.gatech.EDU>
<1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com>
<1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com>
Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: helena.uswest.com
> = (Mike Tighe) writes:
>> = (Dennis Rivard) writes:
>>Has anyone
noticed that many of the people that are now
saying "If we >>had
only helped him more, this wouldn't have
happened" are the same >>ones that said "We shouldn't
help them until we see more reforms"????
I have
no idea what Dennis' point is; I've heard no public figure that has said
anything close to this.
I *did*
hear Bush Monday rather testily defending
his lack
of assistance
to Gorbachev at their fruitless summit.
>I also
notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle
into >the internal
affairs of other countries, at
least when those other
>countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua,
Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But >the USSR is different...
I'm glad
you recognize that. The USSR, of
course, was/is trying to
be a
fledgling democracy,
and *begged*
for *financial* assistance
to sustain their economy and keep their
people happy while
Gorbachev and the other progressives tried to keep things
moving.
Every country
Tighe mentions was supplied with arms up the
wazoo by the U.S., which arms were then used to subjugate, tyrannize
and terrorize
their people.
I don't
know why Tighe mentions the Phillipines; we did shit
to get Marcos out, and we've done shit to help real democracy (again)
get a
good foothold. We
gave tyrant Marcos and his bimbo wife
ASYLUM, fer chrissakes. Let's
not forget the BILLIONS in
*U.S. taxpayer* money that that asshole ripped off.
The U.S.'s job in the Phillipines, like the USSR and
China in '89, is puzzling
in its
seeming attempt to *stifle*,
rather than nurture,
genuine democracy.
--
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |
| "Nothing to do to save his life..." |
+-+-++-+-+-+-+
steven@uswat.USWest.Com
Path:
relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!mips!apple!ig!oberlin.bitnet!SKS2454
From: SKS2454@oberlin.bitnet ("Acme Industrial Heavy Objects,
Inc.") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: LIVE from the USSR, Day 3
Message-ID: <28A9E8D0E2DF000916@OBERLIN.BITNET>
Date: 21 Aug 91 20:42:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com
Reply-To:
"talk.politics.soviet
via ListServ"
<TPSL@indycms.bitnet>
Lines: 41
August 21 Vremya highlights:
-Gorbachev announces
that he is in charge and in full control
of the situation;
he has
talked with
Yeltsin, Nazarbaev
(Kazakhstan), Karimov
(Uzbekistan), Kravchuk
(Ukraine), and
Dementiev (Belorussia) and they are in
full support
of him; perpetrators of
the coup will be held responsible; General Moiseev has been ordered to pull
troops out of Moscow; Gorbachev
and Bush have talked by phone and will keep in touch
-the Ministry of Defense has announced that troops
will return to base -barricades
are coming down in Moscow
-curfew repealed in Moscow
-the Supreme
Soviet of the RSFSR met today, with Yeltsin thanking everyone
for their help; a delegation has been sent to Faros to meet with Gorbachev; people's deputies warned people to
stay sharp and watch for any signs of another coup attempt
-the Presidium
of the
Supreme Soviet passed a
resolution 1) declaring
the attempt to depose Gorbachev illegal
2) demanding Yanaev repeal all decrees as illegal from the moment of
issuance 3) founding an investigative committee; prosecution has already begun
-foreign ambassadors
were invited to fly to Gorbachev's residence by Silaev, Prime Minister of the
RSFSR, but they missed the plane -advisors
to Gorbachev
said Gorbachev was presented with the decree
on the state of emergency, but he refused to sign it -Tizikov (sp?), a member
of the Committee of Eight, was fired from his
post as
chairman of the Union of Directors of
Enterprises, Transport, Construction,
and Railroads
-Bessmertnykh said foreign policy would remain
constant; he said he was on
vacation when the coup took place and could not respond because he was sick
[editorial chuckle :-) hee hee hee]
-Lukyanov was criticised for not calling a meeting of
the Supreme Soviet sooner than
August 26
-Shcherbakov talked with Gorbachev, who is quite
healthy
-US Ambassador Strauss arrived in Moscow
There were
also reports from
Alma-Ata, Belorussia,
Leningrad, Uzbekistan, Baku, Vilnius, Tallinn, Barnaul, and Kemerovo
implying
that things
were pretty much under control, although
tanks were still hanging
out in Tallinn.
Karen Segar
sks2454@oberlin
sks2454@ocvaxa.cs.oberlin.edu
Xref: relcom relcom.politics:114
talk.politics.soviet:3860
Path:
relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!xeno n From:
xenon@wam.umd.edu (Puff the Fractal Dragon)
Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Translations needed!
Message-ID:
<1991Aug21.211730.28457@wam.umd.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 21:17:30 GMT
References:
<AEqyHieGA0@jumbo.hq.demos.su>
<20AUG199113355475@quark2.aero.org> Sender: xenon@avw.umd.edu
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: avw
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Keywords:
I am
working on
translating some of these reports
right now. Unfortunately
its very
difficult to do so without the Russian fonts. Its
very hard to
read Russian
with the Roman alphabet. I will repost as
fast as possible.
Paul A. Allulis
ZZ
--
Joe Gruessing, University of Maryland at College
Park,
College of Electrical Engineering
Path:
relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!news From:
minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush!
Message-ID:
<1991Aug21.213822.1348@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 21 Aug 91 21:38:22 GMT
References: <1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com>
Sender: news@leland.Stanford.EDU (Mr News)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
Lines: 49
In article
<1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com> tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe)
writes:
..
[previous messages redundant]
..
> > 1) humanitarian aid and military aid;
>
> Soldiers eat too.
>
> > 2) aid to a government and aid to
anti-government underground >
> El Salvador, Nam, Philipines, etc., are the
governments.
>
> >
3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid
to a repressive
> > dictatorship.
>
> Surely
you jest
when you imply that the Gorby regime
is a popular
> constitutional
government, and not a repressive dictatorship. I mean,
Gorby > is not popular with anybody except Westerners,
and they don't vote for his
> election, but then neither does
the
average Soviet. And the
last time I was > living in the
USSR I would have said it
was pretty repressive.
>
> -Mike
> --
1) Certainly soldiers eat
(an army is, after all, well known
to travel on its
stomach :) but this is irrelevant. The distinction I'm
making here is a simple one:
does the aid consist of food, clothing, construction
equipment, educational facilities and
personnel, etc.,
or does it consist
of armaments,
materiel, "advisors", etc? Further, if the aid consists of
monetary credit, the sort of strings put on it can either encourage or
discourage its employment for civilian
or military purposes.
2) El Salvador, Viet Nam, Phillipines, etc. were governments which were
set up and/or propped up by the U.S.; the history
of U.S. intervention
in Latin
America is
a long
series of
destabilizations of
governments which
showed even
vague antipathy, and
subsidy of "friendly" governments, no
matter how oppressive.
3) I think the
events of the last few days can
serve as
an indication of the popularity
of the "Gorby regime". Sure, we
all like to complain about whatever
set of fools is currently running the
government, but something like this
putsch shows where
the people's hearts really are. Furthermore, Gorbachev--whatever his
faults--has certainly been
working harder to make life
in the S.U. (and the
world) better than Bush has for us in the U.S..
And finally, when political scientists (of which I am NOT one)
speak of a popular
government, it is my understanding that they aren't talking
about it
in the
sense of a horse race
or a beauty contest, but
rather in the sense that
the ultimate
authority derives from the people.
--
Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohiostate.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!nucsrl!ddsw1!learn
From: learn@ddsw1.MCS.COM (William Vajk)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Destroying Tunnels (immobilizing tanks)
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.040427.16859@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91
04:04:27 GMT
References: <43018@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Organization: Dares No
Organization Like Dis Organization Lines:
11
In article <43018@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Tom Tedrick writes:
>One thing
I've overlooked
in the past,
when analyzing
the >problem of immobilizing
tanks, is the
effect of
destroying >railroad tunnels, particularly in mountainous regions.
Tom, are
you advocating violence with this little discussion
of yours ?
Bill Vajk
Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!dftsrv!cro
ten From: croten@ltpsun.dftsrv (Charles D. Roten)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Message-ID:
<CROTEN.91Aug20195209@ltpsun.dftsrv>
Date: 20 Aug 91 23:52:09 GMT
References:
<125872@sgi.sgi.com>
<1991Aug20.123858.18454@hubcap.clemson.edu>
<1991Aug20.164602.22309@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
<kb2q4fINN2bs@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> <35145@hydra.gatech.EDU>
Sender: news@dftsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: /home/croten/.organization
Lines: 13
In-reply-to: ce202a2@prism.gatech.EDU's
message of
20 Aug
91 21:19:15 GMT
Charles D. Roten
13603 Avebury Drive, Apt. 33
Laurel, MD, 20708
croten@ltpsun.gsfc.nasa.gov (IP address 128.183.10.30)
We wish you luck!
Down with the Stalinist junta!
--
Charles Roten
| STX,
Incorporated
| net:
croten@ltpsun.gsfc.nasa.gov
mail: 4400
Forbes Blvd., Lanham, MD
20706 phone: 301-794-5410 (w),
301-317-0872 (h)
Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!infidel From:
infidel@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: email in the ussr
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.061719.16469@uniwa.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 21 Aug 91 06:17:19 GMT
References: <1991Aug21.034905.12398@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: news@uniwa.uwa.oz.au (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Western Australia
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
(Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>If anyone knows the details about the technical facilities there,
I'd be
>interested. Thanks.
So would Col. Alksnis.
JW
Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohiostate.edu!magnus.acs.ohiostate.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!mll110
From: MLL110@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Simple transliterator for Russian
Message-ID: <91232.232846MLL110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 03:28:46 GMT
References: <1991Aug21.002925.17332@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 10
I'm glad that was posted. I
have a Cyrillic screen driver for the pc
which is
only about 6000 bytes.
I got some critism about posting it, so if anyone wants it,I can e-mail it to
them.
|\ /| /\ ~~|~~
~~|~~
/Matthew Lang
| \/ | /
\ |
|
/Pennsylvania State
University
| |
/~~~~\ |
| internet-->
/mllang@baraddur.endor.cs.psu.edu
-----------------------------------------/lang@vivaldi.psu.edu
"To everything there is a season" /MLL110@PSUVM.BITNET
<-BITNET
Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3866 soc.culture.soviet:875 Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohiostate.edu!magnus.acs.ohiostate.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!auvm!matward
From: MATWARD@auvm.american.edu (Samer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: PLEASE post your surface mail addresses
Message-ID: <91232.225942MATWARD@auvm.american.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 02:59:42 GMT References: <35178@usc.edu>
Organization: The
American University
- University
Computing Center Lines: 17
Add may name and address:
Samer
4410 Massacusetts Ave. NW
Suite 280-R
Washington, D.C. 20016
(202) 338-3348
Or at work:
Samer
1066 National Press Building Washington, D.C. 20045
(202) 393-7110
(202) 393-5451 -- FAX
Good Luck!
Samer.
Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uwbeaver!milton!dmiles
From: dmiles@milton.u.washington.edu
(David Miles)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: . "--"
Summary: translation of Article 6501
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.062522.14683@milton.u.washington.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 06:25:22 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 42
Expires:
References: <AATmUieKDA@brokin.msk.su>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Keywords:
In
article <AATmUieKDA@brokin.msk.su>
postmaster@brokin.msk.su
writes: >
>
oT "b-i-s".
>
kONGRESS ROSSIJSKIH DELOWYH KRUGOW.
>
(pOLNYJ TEKST POZVE). iNFORMACIQ I TELEFONNYJ RAZGOWOR.
>
wSEM, KOMU DOROGI ROSTKI ZAWOEWANIJ DEMOKRATII.
>
pROSIM mOSKWI^EJ ORGANIZOWATX OBORONU wERHOWNOGO SOWETA.
sI-
>
TUACIQ BLIZKA K
KRITI^ESKOJ. wOZMOVNO PRIMENENIE
PUT^ISTAMI
>
OGNESTRELXNOGO ORUVIQ I, WOZMOVNO, OTRAWLQ@]IH
WE]ESTW.
>
pROSIM ORGANIZOWATX PODDERVKU WO WSEH REGIONAH STRANY.
>
oT NAS ZAWISIT NA[E BUDU]EE.
>
pROSXBA RAZOSLATX \TO SOOB]ENIE WSEM.
>
rADIO "|ho moskwy" RABOTAET NA SREDNIH WOLNAH 1000-1200 KgC.
>
sITUACIQ NA SAMOM DELE BLIZKA K KRITI^ESKOJ.
>
>
"b-i-s"
>
>
from "b-i-s"
Congress of Russian Business Circles
(Full text to follow). Information
and telephone conversation.
To all who cherish the hard-earned fledgling democracy.
We ask
all Muscovites to organize
the defense of
the Supreme Soviet.
The situation is nearly
critical. The putschists may
resort to firearms
or, possibly, poisonous substances.
We ask that you organize support in all regions of the country. Our
future depends on us.
Please pass this on to everyone.
Radio "Echo Moscow" is working on short wave at 1000-1200 KHz.
The situation is really nearly critical.
"b-i-s"
Xref: relcom
talk.politics.soviet:3868 soc.culture.soviet:877
misc.headlines:3527
Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!usage.csd.unsw.o
z.au!s2107158@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au
From: s2107158@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Patrick Sora Morris-Suzuki)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,misc.headlines Subject:
YAZOV,PAVLOV RESIGN!!
Message-ID: <2261@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au>
Date: 20 Aug 91 22:30:30
GMT
Sender: news@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: University of New South Wales
Lines: 11
ABC (THe
AUSTRALIAN Broadcasting Corporation) Radio Natinal
has reported that
Dmitri Yazov and Valentin
Pavlov have resigned. Dmitri Yazov
resigned claiming that the military had no
business in the government! Valentin Pavlov resigned supposedly due to
high blood pressure. Also it is
reported that an attack on the Russian parliament was expected at 1 AM (according to Russian
Federation Sources), by the "Blue Berets". ALso there were
unconfimed report a
couple of hours ago that Kruchyev was about to resign. I
havce heard nothing since.
-Is the coup collapsing?
-Patrick Morris-Suzuki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Path: relcom!demos!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!pjt
From: pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale)
Subject: Re: close neighbor
In-Reply-To: jwm@sun4.uucp's message of 20 Aug 91 16:56:16 GMT
Message-ID: <PJT.91Aug21101648@vipunen.hut.fi>
Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-Posting-Host:
vipunen.hut.fi
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland References:
<3152@kielo.uta.fi>
<1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Date: 21
Aug 91 10:16:48
Lines: 62
In
article
<1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>
jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt) writes:
>}Finland offers an excellent place to monitor broadcasts from the
USSR as
>}we are their closest neighbour.
>Perhaps you
mean to
Moscow? There are other countries with
borders
>on the Soviet Union.
Even the US of A is only 3 miles from
the Soviet >Union...
>But Finland
does make
an excellent listening
site, with
a straight >shot across the water ("Whiskey on the Rocks".
hehehehe) Actually, that
"Whiskey on the Rocks" thing happened
in Sweden. We don't have to cross water to get to USSR, we have
a thousand kilometers of
common land border (and it's Russian
border, not Soviet
border like Poland, Checkoslovakia et al have).
Leningrad is a couple of
hundred miles from Helsinki. It's fifty miles from here
to Tallinn, accross the
Finnish Gulf, where Soviet troops captured the
last free Soviet TV
stations. (Estonian radio
is still free, I think).
Interesting side note:
Yesterday evening YLE's (our broadcasting
company) TV
news said that only "six Estonian and
three Soviet nationals have
been seeking political asylum in Finland".
A neat way of saying that
this reporter thinks that Estonia is no longer
a part of Soviet Union, after the independence declaration a
day before.
The Finnish
public opinion
is very
strongly supporting the
independence of the Baltic countries,
especially Estonia. The
Baltic countries have
prepared to
form refugee governments
in Scandinavia, if the hard-liners win and
old order is restored in
the Baltic.
(A side
note: we
Finns like it
when our
reporters can
do interviews of a
Estonian leaders using the Finnish language,
and most of the time get answers in Finnish as well. Estonians
have been watching the
Finnish TV closely for a long time. Hope
this won't harm the
Estonian language, which is different even
though remarkably similar
to Finnish. Maybe as close as
German is
to English).
A group of Estonian
veterans of the Second World War, who joined
the Finnish Army to
fight USSR after it occupied
the Baltic countries, has
been visiting Finland to honor the memory of
their comrades that
were killed in war (and prison camps
in Siberia after
the war). Our TV showed an
interview of a man
from that group.
He seemed
to have a pretty firm vision of
things: The Soviet
Union changed permanently
during the Gorbachev era. The
developement is impossible to reverse. The coup will fail,
sooner or later.
It seems
that the Baltic countries will gain their
independency maybe not immediately, but within a few years.
This coup may be a setback, but
it may as well be a
catalyzer for
even greater changes towards
democracy and and freedom. Time
will show;
I really hope that the public feeling here is right. If we're wrong,
another long dark era will follow.
BTW, it
seems strange to me why
the PLO - along with Iraq
and Libya is once again
betting on a dead horse. Don't they have
any mind at
all? How do they think
anybody will take them seriously when they
talk about democracy and freedom, now that they support such an undemocratic
coup like this?
--
Pekka Taipale
pjt@vipunen.hut.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Path: relcom!demos!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!pjt
From: pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale)
Subject: Re: We Must Rescue Gorbachev !!!
In-Reply-To: Michael_Carman@mindlink.bc.ca's message of 19 Aug
91 14:32:54 GMT Message-ID: <PJT.91Aug21103108@vipunen.hut.fi>
Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-Posting-Host:
vipunen.hut.fi
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland References:
<7111@mindlink.bc.ca>
Date: 21 Aug 91 10:31:08
Lines: 23
In article
<7111@mindlink.bc.ca> Michael_Carman@mindlink.bc.ca
(Michael Carman) writes:
>If Bush, his lapdog Brian Mulroney, Major et al had done more for
Gorbachev at
>the G7
summit, he likely would still be in power. Now, we
face the possibility >of a long slide back into a cold war -- or
worse. Don't blame your leaders on this. You can never know what more aid
would have done. It is not at all
clear. More aid could just
as well have
made the hard-liners act
earlier upon realizing
the USSR's dependancy on
West. More aid could as well
have stopped the
democratic movement earlier. Now it's too late; the old order cannot come back.
In the
end, nobody outside USSR
can do much about this, except show clear
support for Yeltsin & co. This is a
thing that
the Soviets, especially
the Russians, must sort out themselves. More
than anything else, it's their
own lives and their own countries
that are
on stake.
Nobody else can take charge; it
is their responsibility.
Not that
we shouldn't help when we know what to do, of course.
--
Pekka Taipale
pjt@vipunen.hut.fi
Xref: relcom soc.culture.soviet:878 talk.politics.soviet:3871 Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!leisti From:
leisti@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet Postal System
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.104529.1@cc.helsinki.fi>
Date: 21 Aug 91 08:45:29 GMT
References: <1991Aug20.162330.5722@infonode.ingr.com>
Sender: news@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 12
margaret@infonode.ingr.com (Margaret Wiginton)
writes: > I'm sending a registered letter to a friend in Moscow > today.
Is there even a remote chance that it will be > delivered?
Probably very
remote. A
peace group I'm a
member of
tried sending an invitation to a Soviet peace activist several times,
to enable him to attend a conference, but he never got any
of the letters.
And this was before the coup. But
you can always try. -- Teemu Leisti / U. of Helsinki, Finland /
leisti@cc.helsinki.fi Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!vanbc!rsoft!mindlink!a1828
From: ussr_business@mindlink.bc.ca
(Rein Stamm)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Business News From Leningrad
Message-ID: <7124@mindlink.bc.ca>
Date: 20 Aug 91 03:55:19 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 74
From
Leningrad
****************************************************************
DECLARATION OF ANATOLY SOBCHAK TO THE BUSINESSMEN OF ALL THE WORLD Leningrad,
August 21, 1991, 5.00 am, Moscow time.
After the
political situation in the USSR became aggravated
the Mayor of Leningrad Anatoly Sobchak gave an exclusive interview to the correspondent
of the
information agency
"St. Petersburg
Business News" to be
distributed in the business circles of
all the world.
"I am
forced to
state, - said Anatoly
Sobchak, -
that the appearance of anti-constitutional State emergency
committee on the Soviet political
scene rouse the motivated apprehension
of the businessmen
in the world, concerning investments
in the
Soviet economy which have been already done or are going to be
done".
The risk of the foreign investments, as well as of
the cooperation with commercial
entities of our country, grew up
considerably. But, as to Anatoly Sobchak, the situation can be
predicted. It is now
under the control of the
legal authorities in a
number of regions of the
country and in Leningrad.
The information,
which comes from the different regions
of the country
tells about the growing
resistance to the reactionaries
and the solid position of the
government of Russia as well as of
very popular among the people the
leader of Russia Boris Yeltzin, is very
typical. These facts
testify not only the
strategical mistakes made by the so-called State emergency committee in
their attempts to take the power, but also its unstable situation.
Just at the moment, as to Anatoly Sobchak, there are
three options of the
possible development of events. The first one, being
the most probable:
after the resistance of the Yeltzin's
government and the committee of Janaev-Pavlov the reaction will be
suppressed in the nearest five-to-six days.
The second
one, which exists currently and will
hardly remain:
reactionaries will be able to control the situation only
in some regions, but not
in such strategically
important as
Moscow, Leningrad, Ukrain, Kazakhstan, the regions of Syberia.
The fact, that the
military divisions take the side of the legal power, will not
allow Janaev-Pavlov
to start
the civil
war, and
being isolated, they will be forced to capitulate after some time.
At last,
the third option, which seems to me the less
probable: The State
emergency committee will take all the power in their hands.
But even
in this
case, as Anatoly Sobchak
said, the reactionaries
will not be able to undertake something decisive
as to the
private investments, both foreign and soviet. "The reason to
that, extremely
negative sequences for the
Soviet economy together
with today's critical economic situation. It is
not an
accident, that former vice-president of the USSR Janaev, given all our
distrust to any of his actions, on the press-conference on the 19th
of August, declared about
support of private initiatives and
he couldn't suggest anything else".
Anatoly Sobchak said: "Understanding all the responsibility to our
electors, law and foreign partners, and undertaking all the
steps possible to suppress the reactionaries, Russian government
has a right
for political
and economic support of the
international community and
business circles of all the world. Any support
of the central government means the support of the reaction".
Anatoly Sobchak
said, that
Leningrad municipal
government, assisting the
president of Russia Boris Yeltzin in restoring
the order in the country, were continuing the work in organizing
Free Enterprise
Zone.
***************************************************************
--
Rein Stamm
ussr_business@mindlink.bc.ca
Compuserve ID: 70650,3653
Vancouver B.C., Canada
Xref: relcom relcom.politics:117 talk.politics.soviet:3873
Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uwbeaver!milton!dmiles
From: dmiles@milton.u.washington.edu
(David Miles)
Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: ?
Summary: translation of message 6471
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.073738.20114@milton.u.washington.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 07:37:38 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 145
In article <ABrQKieGh0@jumbo.hq.demos.su> polina@jumbo.hq.demos.su
writes: >sANKT-pETERBURG:
>
>mY W OSNOWNOM KORMIMSQ SLUHAMI I WA[EJ INFORMACIEJ.
>wOT NA[ KRATKIJ OBZOR
SITUACII, KAK ONA WIDITSQ NAM PO SOSTOQNI@ NA 16:00. >
>u NAS WOOB]E WSE DOWOLXNO SPOKOJNO. tRANSPORT, SWQZX I
>MAGAZINY RABOTA@T,
PO WSEMU
GORODU RAZWE[ENY
PLAKATY
S
OBRA]ENIQMI
>I PRIKAZAMI eLXCINA I
sOB^AKA. wSE GORODSKIE SLUVBY, MILICIQ
I omon >POD^INQ@TSQ TOLXKO sOB^AKU I
lENSOWETU, KOTORYJ
ZASEDAL W^ERA WE^EROM >I
BUDET ZASEDATX
SEGODNQ. zASEDANIE
W^ERA TRANSLIROWALOSX NA iSAAKIEW
>SKU@ PLO]ADX,
SEGODNQ E]E I PO lENINGRADSKOMU RADIO.
w^ERA PO TELEWIZORU
>PEREDALI WYSTUPLENIE
sOB^AKA, OB'QWIW[EGO PUT^ISTOW
WNE ZAKONA.
>sEGODNQ U NAS WSEOB]AQ POLITI^ESKAQ ZABASTOWKA.
>mY, KONE^NO, RABOTAEM, NO CELIKOM PRISOEDINQEMSQ.
>nA OSNOWNYH ZAWODAH
TIPA kIROWSKOGO RABOTAET TOLXKO >NEPRERYWNOE PROIZWODSTWO, DRUGIE ZAWODY
RABOTA@T ^ASTI^NO. >uTROM MNOGO NARODA SOBRALOSX
NA dWORCOWOJ. pO E-mail
PRIHODIT >MNOGO "REPORTAVEJ S
RAZNYH MEST".
>nA SEGODNQ
UTROM "KOMENDANT
lENINGRADA", ON
VE KOMANDU@]IJ
lENINGRADSKIM >WOENNYM
OKRUGOM, ZANIMAET NEJTRALXNU@ POZICI@. w
lENINGRADE WOISK
>POKA NET, NO ESTX SLUHI, ^TO PODTQGIWAETSQ pSKOWSKAQ DIWIZIQ.
>
>s UTRA
RABOTAET NEZAWISIMAQ RADIOSTANCIQ "bALTIKA"
(401 M)
I RADIO roks. >dNEM WY[LA GAZETA "smena" S OBRA]ENIQMI
eLXCINA I }ELKANOWA (BYW[.
DO 12 I@NQ >PRED. GORISPOLKOMA).
>
Saint Petersburg:
We are getting by on rumors and your information.
Here is our short summary of the situation as it appears to us
at 1600 hours [on August 20]
Things are
generally quiet. City
transport, communications and
stores
are working, there are posters hung all over the city
with Yeltsin and Sobchak's
appeals and orders. All
the city
services, the police and
the
OMON obey
only Sobchak and the Lenin
city council,
which met yesterday
evening
and will
meet today. The meeting
was broadcast to St.
Isaac's Square yesterday,
and today also on Leningrad radio.
Yesterday Sobchak appeared
on television, declaring the putschists
to be acting illegally.
Today we are in a general political strike.
We, of course, are working, but we fully support the
strike.
At the
main factories
like the
Kirov only
the continuous production
continues, other factories are only partially working. In
the morning many people gathered at the Palace Square.
We are getting lots of "reports from all over" by email.
This morning
the "Leningrad Commandant," who
commands
the
Leningrad military
region, is taking a neutral position.
There are no
troops in Leningrad at the moment, but there are rumors that
the Pskov division is being moved in.
Since morning
the radio station "Baltika" (401 M) and radio
ROKS have been operating.
Today the
newspaper "Smena" came out with Yeltsin's
appeal and Shchelkanov's
(head of the city executive council until June 12) >bARNAUL:
>
>
G.bARNAUL 20.08.91 21-00 MESTNOGO WREMENI.
>
>
sOSTOQLOSX OB'EDINENNOE ZASEDANIE ISPOLKOMOW KRAEWOGO I >GORODSKOGO
SOWETOW DEPUTATOW. nA ZASEDANII BYLO PRINQTO
RE[ENIE >O TOM,
^TO gk~p QWLQETSQ NEKONSTITUCIONNYM I OB \TOM OTPRAWLENO >POSLANIE
PREZIDENTU rsfsr. w POSTANOWLENII GOWORITSQ TAKVE,
^TO >KOMITET KONSTITUCIONNOGO
NADZORA sssr OBQZAN PRINQTX RE[ENIE PO
>POWODU gk~p.
nA ZASEDANII PRINQTO
OBRA]ENIE K NASELENI@
KRAQ >SOHRANQTX SPOKOJSTWIE
I WYDERVKU, A TAKVE REKOMENDOWANO
WOZDER >VATXSQ OT ZABASTOWOK I PRODOLVATX TRUDITXSQ NA RABO^IH
MESTAH. > >
sEGODNQ W 19-00 SOSTOQLSQ MITING W PODDERVKU PRAWITELXSTWA >rsfsr I
PREZIDENTA eLXCINA. pODROBNEE ZAWTRA.
>
>
oBSTANOWKA W GORODE
NORMALXNAQ. kAK BUDTO BY NI^EGO
NE >PROISHODIT.
>
Barnaul:
the city of Barnaul 20 Aug 91 2100 hours local time
There was
a joint meeting of
the executive committees of
the regional and city soviets
of deputies. At the
meeting it
was concluded that the Emergency Committee is unconstitutional
and a message was sent
to the
president of
the RSFSR stating that
conclusion.
The
resolution
also says
that the
Committee for
Constitutional Oversight of the USSR must make a decision regarding the
Emergency Committee. At the
meeting an appeal was made to the people of the territory to keep calm and
maintain self-control and also to keep
from striking and continue to work at their usual jobs.
Today at
1900 hours there was a meeting to support the government of the RSFSR and
President Yeltsin. Details
tomorrow.
The situation in the city is normal.
As if nothing was happening. >tOMSK:
>
>
19 AWGUSTA 1991 GODA SOSTOQLSQ RAS[IRENNYJ
PREZI-
>
DIUM tOMSKOGO
OBLASTNOGO I GORODSKOGO sOWETOW NARODNYH
>
DEPUTATOW, NA KOTOROJ BYLO PRINQTO RE[ENIE PO POWODU zA-
>
QWLENIQ gOSUDARSTWENNOGO kOMITETA PO ~REZWY^AJNOMU pOLO-
>
VENI@ W sssr. ~LENY PREZIDIUMA, OBSUDIW INFORMACI@ O zA-
>
QWLENIE gk~p sssr, OBRA]ENII pREZIDENTA rsfsr K NARODU I
>
uKAZE pREZIDENTA rsfr POSTANOWILI, ^TO W TOMSKOJ OBLASTI
>
NET OSNOWANIJ DLQ WWEDENIQ ^REZWY^AJNOGO POLOVENIQ.
rE-
>
[ENO PODDERVATX OBRA]ENIE RUKOWODSTWA
rsfsr K
NARODU,
>
NEUKOSNITELXNO WYPOLNQTX uKAZY pREZIDENTA rsfsr ,
PORU-
>
^ITX KOMITETU PO TELEWIDENI@ I RADIOWE]ANI@
PO tOMSKOJ
>
OBLASTI PEREDAWATX OBRA]ENIE, uKAZ pREZIDENTA rsfsr, RE-
>
[ENIE RAS[IRENNOGO PREZIDIUMA DO 24.00 19
AWGUSTA 1991
>
G.
>
sOGLASNO RE[ENI@ ^LENOW PREZIDIUMA
BYLI PRINQTY
>
DOPOLNITELXNYE MERY PO OHRANE OB#KTOW VIZNEOBESPE^ENIQ I
>
OB]ESTWENNOGO PORQDKA.
>
20 AWGUSTA SOSTOQLASX WSTRE^A PREDSEDATELQ OBLIS-
>
POLKOMA oLEGA kU[ELEWSKOGO, PRIBYW[EGO IZ mOSKWY, S VUR-
>
NALISTAMI. pREDSEDATELX OBLISPOLKOMA PODTWERDIL ,
^TO
>
WSEMI WOZMOVNYMI SREDSTWAMI BUDET PODDERVIWATX pREZIDEN-
>
TA rsfsr I PRAWITELXSTWA rOSSII.
>
nA SOSTOQW[EJSQ W TOT VE DENX W tOMSKE WSTRE^E WE-
>
TERANOW aFGANISTANA
SOBRAW[IESQ TAK VE PODDERVALI rOS-
>
SIJSKOE RUKOWODSTWO.
Tomsk:
On 19
August 1991 there was an expanded presidium meeting of the Tomsk regional
and city
soviets of people's deputies, at
which a decision was made
concerning the
declaration of the USSR
State Emergency Committee.
The members
of the presidium, having discussed information about the declaration of the USSR Emergency Committee's
declaration, the appeal by the
President of the RSFSR to the people and the
ukase of the
president of the RSFSR, resolved that there was no reason to
declare a
state of emergency in the Tomsk region. It
was decided to support the
appeal by the leadership of the RSFSR to the
people, to strictly carry
out the ukase of the President of
the RSFSR, and to instruct the
Committee for Television and Radio Broadcasting to announce the appeal and the
ukase by the President of the USSR and the decision
of the expanded presidium by 2400 hours on August 19,
1991.
In accordance
with the
decision of
the presidium
supplementary measures were taken
to safeguard life
and social order.
On August 20 the head of
the regional executive committee, Oleg Kushelevsky,
who had just returned from Moscow,
met with reporters. He
reaffirmed that the President of the RSFSR
and the government of
Russia would be supported in every way possible.
On the
same day
at a meeting in Tomsk of
veterans of Afghanistan
those at
the meeting also supported
the Russian leadership.
Xref: relcom relcom.politics:118
talk.politics.soviet:3874
Path:
relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-
beaver!milton!dmiles From: dmiles@milton.u.washington.edu (David Miles)
Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: .
Summary: Translation of article 6742
Message-ID:
<1991Aug21.075802.21558@milton.u.washington.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 07:58:02 GMT
References: <ACAVLieqq0@jumbo.hq.demos.su>
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 26
In article
<ACAVLieqq0@jumbo.hq.demos.su>
any@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes:
>w^ERA (19/08/91)
nIVEGORODSKOE TELEWIDENIE
ZA^ITALO
OBRA]ENIE g~k I >T.eLXCINA b.n.,A TAKVE SOOB]ENIE
O SOZYWE ^REZ>WY^AJNOJ SESSII GORSOWETA ZA PODPISX@
ZAM.PREDSEDATELQ GORSO>WETA sABA[NIKOWA.w^ERA W 17.00
SOSTOQLSQ MITING
W PODDERVKU >eLXCINA
S U^ASTIEM
DEPUTATOW OBLASTI I
RESPUBLIKI.sEGODNQ W
>17.00 SOSTOQTSQ
MITINGI W CENTRE GORODA
I NA
aWTOZAWODE,GDE >BUDET SOZDAN
SWOJ STA^KOM.fUNKCIONIRUET GORODSKOJ STA^>KOM(TEL.8
8312-39-01-42).zAREGISTRIROWANY 5 KRUPNYH PREDPRIQ>TIJ,OB'QWIW[IH ZABASTOWKU.W GORODE OBSTANOWKA SPOKOJNAQ,WOEN>NYH NE WIDNO.oDNAKO
OTSUTSWUET DOSTOWERNAQ INFORMACIQ O POLO>VENII W STRANE I mOSKWE. Yesterday
(19 Aug 91) Nizhny Novgorod television read the
appeal of the Emergency
Committee and of B. N. Yeltsin, and also
an announcement of an emergency
session of the city soviet signed by the deputy head of the city soviet,
Sabashchnikov. Yesterday at
1700 hours there was a demonstration in support
of Yeltsin, which
deputies from the region and the republic attended.
Today at 1700 hours there
is a demonstration in the city center and one at
the automobile
factory, where a strike committtee
will be formed.
There
is now a functioning city strike committee (telephone 8 8312-39-0142). Five
large enterprises are listed as announcing strikes. The situation in the city is calm, no troops are in evidence.
However there is a lack of reliable information about the situation in
the rest of the country and in Moscow.
