19_22_ртуєёЄр_1991_уюфр

Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3820 soc.culture.soviet:865 misc.headlines:3524 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,misc.headlines,alt.good.ne ws Subject: Re: Yazov

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.012850.3664@Veritas.COM>

Date: 21 Aug 91 01:28:50 GMT

References: <AAe1IieKE0@jumbo.hq.demos.su> <1991Aug20.163652.20392@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet

Organization: VERITAS Software

Lines: 32

In article <1991Aug20.163652.20392@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> bill@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu (Bill Roth) writes: >In article <AAe1IieKE0@jumbo.hq.demos.su> avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >>Subject: qZOW

>>u NAS PO RADIO PEREDALI ^TO qZOW OTKAZALSQ OT

>>U^ASTIQ W kOMITETE -- ZAQWIL ^TO ON NI^EGO NE

>>ZNAET I NIKOGDA W NEGO NE WHODIL

>>kROME TOGO PEREDALI ^TO mI[A PEREWEZEN W mOSKWU NA BOMBARDIROW]IKE >>

>>wSE \TO IDET SO SSYLKOJ NA |ho moskwy

>>zARABOTALA LI \TA RADIOSTANCIQ ? >>----------------------------н----------------------------------->>Igor E. Chechik -- postmaster of St. Peterburg (Leningrad), USSR >Could someone translate this please?

"Our [local] radio just broadcast that Yazov refused to participare in the [coup] Committee -- he declared that he knows nothing [about it] and was never a part of it.

"Also, it was broadcast that Misha [Gorbachev] was flown to Moscow in a bomber,

"All this was credited to 'Echo of Moscow'

"Is radiostation broadcasting again?"

DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!mips!sgi!cdp!christic From: christic@cdp.UUCP Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your

Message-ID: <1483700010@cdp>

Date: 20 Aug 91 11:37:00 GMT

References: <35158@usc.edu>

Lines: 18

Nf-ID: #R:usc.edu:35158:cdp:1483700010:000:767

Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!christic Aug 20 04:37:00 1991

Anything posted to me by any route will be circulated on APC networks (progressive networks in the U.S., Canada, Brazil, Great Britain, Sweden, Germany and Australia) and the ACTIV-L mailing list on Bitnet. I'm facilitator of the "glasnost.news" conference on PeaceNet.

Andy Lang

Christic Institute

1324 North Capitol Street, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20002 -----------------------------------------------------------------нAndrew Lang 151251507 CHRISTIC

telex Christic Institute christic

PeaceNet 202-529-0140 BBS christic@igc.org

Internet 202-797-8106 voice uunet!pyramid!cdp!christic UUCP 202-462-5138 fax cdp!christic%labrea@stanford Bitnet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-

state.edu!mips!sgi!cdp!christic From: christic@cdp.UUCP Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Radio Moscow Message-ID: <1483700009@cdp>

Date: 20 Aug 91 11:31:00 GMT References: <21232@rsiatl.dixie.com> Lines: 15

Nf-ID: #R:rsiatl.dixie.com:21232:cdp:1483700009:000:710

Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!christic Aug 20 04:31:00 1991

Don't be too hard on Radio Moscow. None of their regular voices (with their smooth American accents) were heard during the broadcast

last night. It's the same story for all of the Soviet media:

They've shunted aside the regular journalists and put hacks on the air. (That's my assumption.)

Andy -----------------------------------------------------------------нAndrew Lang 151251507 CHRISTIC

telex Christic Institute christic

PeaceNet 202-529-0140 BBS christic@igc.org

Internet 202-797-8106 voice uunet!pyramid!cdp!christic UUCP 202-462-5138 fax cdp!christic%labrea@stanford Bitnet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!isi.edu!lpres s From: lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Talk to the general media?

Message-ID: <18914@venera.isi.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 23:59:51 GMT

Reply-To: lpress@venera.isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute Lines: 11

Two people have posted messages regarding intention to speak about the

net to the general media (radio, tv, papers).

Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted?

What do you think? Does the KGB know about the Net anyhow?

Do we endanger the people and the connection by speaking in public?

Do we help the cause by publicizing it?

Larry Press

Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3824 soc.culture.soviet:867 misc.headlines:3525 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!veritas !oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,misc.headlines Subject: Re: 13

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.014033.4266@Veritas.COM>

Date: 21 Aug 91 01:40:33 GMT

References: <AAYZIie0M0@jumbo.hq.demos.su>

Organization: VERITAS Software

Lines: 50

In article <AAYZIie0M0@jumbo.hq.demos.su> avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >sWIDETELXSTWO O^EWIDCA

>nA iSAAKIEWSKOJ PLO]ADI PERED ZDANIEM mARIINSKOGO DWORCA >PRODOLVAETSQ MITING. pLO]ADX NAPOLOWINU ZAPOLNENA L@DXMI.

>u KRYLXCA STOIT FURGON tw (IDET TRANSLQCIQ IZ lENSOWETA?). >nA KRYLXCE NESKOLXKO rOSSIJSKIH FLAGOW, SBOKU - ^ELOWEK S >^ERNYM FLAGOM.

> tOLPA SOSTOIT IZ OBY^NYH L@DEJ, MNOGO VEN]IN, PENSIONE>ROW,

NA PLO]ADKE KRYLXCA IGRA@T MALENXKIE DETI.

> oSNOWNYE LOZUNGI - "dOLOJ gkp~ - kpss", >"fA[IZM NE

PROJDET","rOSSIQ, PODNIMAJSQ S KOLEN".

>oTDELXNYE KU^KI L@DEJ GRUPPIRU@TSQ WOKRUG TEH, KTO PRINES

>S SOBOJ RADIOPRIEMNIKI. oSNOWNAQ ^ASTX L@DEJ SLU[AET ORATOROW. > nASTROENIE - BEZUSLOWNAQ PODDERVKA eLXCINA, lENSOWETA,

>sOB^AKA. l@DI DOWOLXNO SPOKOJNY I RE[ITELXNY.

> bARRIKAD NET. nABEREVNAQ mOJKI PEREGOROVENA POWALENNYMI

>STROITELXNYMI WAGON^IKAMI. nA NIH NADPISI - "mY NE RABY", >"sWOBODU!"

> nA SREDNIH WOLNAH RABOTAET "rADIO bALTIKI". rABOTAET

>NESKOLXKO SWOBODNYH RADIOSTANCIJ W L@BITELXSKOM DIAPAZONE >KOROTKIH WOLN.

> mILICII NEMNOGO. omonA NE WIDNO. mOLODYE L@DI PREDLAGA-

>@T POMO]X W ZA]ITE lENSOWETA.

> sOOB]AETSQ , ^TO PO NEKOTORYM [OSSE (W T.^. PO kIEWSO-

>MU) DWIVUTSQ W NAPRAWLENII lENINGRADA WOJSKOWYE ^ASTI.

> wSEH, KTO IMEET INFORMACI@ O PEREDWIVENII WOJSK PROSQT

>ZWONITX W [TAB lENSOWETA:

> 310-00-00

> 319-98-57

Important portions of the above:

The mood in Leningard -- unconditional support of Yeltzin, Leningard Soviet and of Sobchak. People are fairly calm and resolute.

"Baltic Radio" is broadcasting on the AM band. Several independent are broadcasting on the amateur short wave bands. There isn't much militia. Omon troops have not been seen. Youths offer help in defending Leningrad Soviet.

There are news of military brigades moving toward Leningrad

on several highways.

The phone numbers below are for people to report troop movements

to the LenSoviet headquarters.

DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!hsdndev!husc-

news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!gorokho1 From: gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Yazov

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.204608.2697@husc3.harvard.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 00:46:07 GMT

References: <AAe1IieKE0@jumbo.hq.demos.su>

Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Lines: 35

Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu

In article <AAe1IieKE0@jumbo.hq.demos.su> avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes:

>From: chech@kaija.spb.su (Igor E. Chechik)

>Organization: Independent Affiliate "KAIJA", Leningrad, USSR >Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 16:23:23 +0300 (MSD)

>Return-Receipt-To: chech@post.kaija.spb.su >Subject: qZOW

>u NAS PO RADIO PEREDALI ^TO qZOW OTKAZALSQ OT >U^ASTIQ W kOMITETE -- ZAQWIL ^TO ON NI^EGO NE >ZNAET I NIKOGDA W NEGO NE WHODIL

>kROME TOGO PEREDALI ^TO mI[A PEREWEZEN W mOSKWU NA

BOMBARDIROW]IKE >

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Yeah, right...

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.014255.4376@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:42:55 GMT

References: <48703@netnews.upenn.edu>

Organization: VERITAS Software

Lines: 10

In article <48703@netnews.upenn.edu> dmahoney@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Dale Mahoney) writes: >Number 1: A disorganized militia would be worthless

The ONLY hope is that the military will throw in with Yeltzin and other

elected leaders.

DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise.

Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com

VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!think.com!unixland!sharon From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: The West missed an opportunity

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.023105.651@unixland.natick.ma.us>

Date: 21 Aug 91 02:31:05 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.090921.4616@decuk.uvo.dec.com>

Organization: The Think_Tank BBS & Public Access Unix (508) 655н3848

Lines: 77

dierick@ketje.enet.dec.com (Dominique Dierick) writes:

>When I hear president Bush and prime minister Major demand the reнinstallation

>of Gorbatchov I find it kind of hypocrite.

>For years Gorbatchov has asked for financial support but he really got peanuts

>from us. The German cancellor Kohl was the only one willing to support fully. >Now it is too late again. If we had given Gorbatchov our full support, hewould >have been more popular in the Soviet Union and the hard liners wouldn't have >found support for their coup.

I cannot agree with this argument. Surely the West could not have

realistically given massive aid to the Soviet Union in 1986 or 1987; there

had to be a dependable history that Gorbachev was serious in his desire for better relations with the West and an end to the standoff between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

Even if massive aid had been pledged at the G7 conference this year -- or

last year or the year before -- it is unlikely that it would have had made a significant improvement in the life of

the average Soviet citizen. In fact, it is debatable whether it EVER would have had an effect, or would have just gone down a black hole of bureaucracy and corruption.

I do not wish to be put in the position of supporting George Bush's policies toward the Soviet Union. I oppose many of them; I thought his speech to the Ukrainian parliament in Kiev was embarrassing. However, I hardly see how he and John Major are responsible for the situation in the Soviet Union now. The timing of the military takeover, 1 day before the signing of the new union treaty that would have severely limited the role of the Interior Ministry and KGB, suggests that the issue is

not the economy at all, but those who were losing power trying to hold onto

it by any means.

>Let's be realistic. I have watched BBC last night and there are NO signs of >massive resistance. A couple of thousand people on the streets is not what is >going to stop the junta in power now. >The people in the SU, especially in major cities have lack of food and >essential

>medical care, that's what they will remember most from the Gorbatchov time. >For most of them everything is better then Gorbatchov. If people don't have >to fight daily for survival they will have the time to be busy with politics.

The issue now is no longer Gorbachev -- it is Yeltsin in Russia, the

elected governments in the Baltics, etc. Gorbachev is now a symbol for

the increased rights that were to be transferred to the republics. And Yeltsin is EXTREMELY popular -- more popular than John Major is in Britain, judging by his election results.

He is also a symbol of whether or not the country will return to the old ways of the rulers of the past or continue trying to chart a new course.

There are undoubtedly many reasons why there is not a massive outpouring

of citizens in the streets in Moscow. Fear, no doubt, is one; the fact that some people really don't know what is going on, another. But there were massive demonstrations in Leningrad and Kishinev -нseveral hundred thousand people at each.

And some people who led especially hard lives in the Soviet Union -- the miners -- have been quite active politically. So I cannot agree

with your contention that if people didn't have to "fight daily for survival they will have the time to be busy with politics."

I agree with you that there is very little we can do to influence matters

in the Soviet Union now, other than economic penalties and very strong words. Public opinion has worked to some degree before; the bloodiest

crackdown in Lithuania eased somewhat after the Western World raised its voice in protest.

I agree with you, too, in the hopes that people do not get killed. This is a sad and frightening time.

Sharon

Sharon Machlis Gartenberg

Framingham, MA USA

email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us or

uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon Path:

References: <18914@venera.isi.edu>

Sender: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Lines: 37

In article <18914@venera.isi.edu>, lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) writes: |> Two people have posted messages regarding intention to speak about the

|> net to the general media (radio, tv, papers).

|> Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet

|> and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted?

|> What do you think? Does the KGB know about the Net anyhow?

|> Do we endanger the people and the connection by speaking in public?

|> Do we help the cause by publicizing it?

The media know about the net, and many reporters are on it. I know

of several National Public Radio reporters who are on the net,

as well as a number of newspaper columnists. Time magazine has a site on the net. Several newspapers get newsfeeds. The FBI gets a newsfeed from uunet. The net is not a small community of computer nerds anymore.

It's possible that press reports about the role of the net

might prompt some Soviet bureaucrat to cut the link, but there's no way we can keep talk.politics.soviet a secret from the American press: first off, they already know; secondly, there were a number of stories about the rule soc.culture.china was playing during the troubles at Tienanmen Square a couple years back: any reporter with a memory would expect the same thing.

If the top brass in the KGB saw a CNN story about all the juicy stuff coming over the Internet link, they might be prompted to cut it off, but I can almost guarantee you that someone at CNN (or at least someone who knows someone) is reading this group. We'll just have to rely on their sense of responsibility (this probably

means you shouldn't tell your local TV reporters: they are an incredibly dim-witted and irresponsible breed).

Joe Buck

jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!mips!cs.uoregon.edu!milton!uw-beaver!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Scared...

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.020259.10339@apollo.hp.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 02:02:59 GMT

Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division нChelmsford, MA

Lines: 91

Originator: goykhman_a@ufo

Nntp-Posting-Host: ufo.ch.apollo.hp.com

I can not recall when was the last time I was scared

by the news as I am now. No, I am not particularily concerned about the coup: while its timing was a bit of a surprise, everything else was fairly predictable.

What really scares me to death is the news that part of the Taman Guard Armored Division reportedly defected to Yeltsin, and is now defending the Russian Parlament.

Why? Because Taman Guards are among the elite Soviet troops, people who are supposed to be especially

loyal to the Central Command. If the Taman Guards can take sides and disobey orders, what can we expect from the regular Army detachements?

Even a remote chance of a civil war in a country

full of nukes should scare any thinking person to death. And yes, I know that the SU's strategic nuclear forces are under joint control and, therefore, are unlikely to be used against the US, at least at the moment.

The main danger comes from the tens of thousands of tactical nukes controlled at the DIVISION level.

Should a civil war erupt, both sides in the conflict will have tactical nukes at their disposal.

Should they use the nukes, there will be no winners.

This is the time when a strong leadership is particularly in demand. Unfortunately, the Bush/Baker "foreign" team

does not inspire much confidence. Just look at their record: About year ago, the US Ambassador to Iraq, on the orders

from the White House, stroke a conciliatory note

during her meeting with Saddam Hussein. One week after,

the Persian Gulf war began.

About a month ago, Baker went to Yugoslavia and mumbled something about the (whose?) need preserve the Yugoslavian territorial integrity. Violence erupted almost immediately, and still goes on.

Did Bush/Baker learn anything from the past experience?

You be the judge: a couple of weeks ago Mr. Bush himself went to Moscow and, among other things, pimped for the Gorbachev's Union Treaty. Today we know that it was the upcoming signing of the treaty the prompted the coup. Apparently, the plotters felt that what was good for Amerika was not necessarily good for Russia. (Plus, don't you think the recent debate over the

China's MFN send the hardliners a clear message?...)

With the foreign "experts" like these, who needs a crystal

ball?

Regrettably, even the latest meddling in the Soviet internal affairs did not teach the policy makers to keep out.

Mr. Bush branded the junta "illegitimate" (as if it were any less legitimate then the previous ones), and even went as far as

discussing the current event with Yeltsin.

This is pouring gasoline over fire, and here's why:

Every Soviet citizen from the early childhood is taught that the Western intelligence services, as well as those who are behind them, would go to any length, and spare no money to subvert the Soviet system. So much, that the average Soviet citizen actually believes the story and

is looking to the West, and US in particular, as their saviour. Mr. Bush's words can have the same effect on the Soviet population as they had on Kurds..., but with one important difference: the Soviets, even when abandoned by Bush,

will have enough weaponry to keep the civil war going.

Scared,

Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!yale!mintaka!bloomнpicayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!dks From: dks@athena.mit.edu (Dhanesh K Samarasan)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Talk to the general media?

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.023017.15213@athena.mit.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 02:30:17 GMT

References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu>

Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system)

Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

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Nntp-Posting-Host: e40-008-5.mit.edu

In article <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes: >In article <18914@venera.isi.edu>, lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) writes: >|> Two people have posted messages regarding intention to speak about the

>|> net to the general media (radio, tv, papers).

>|>

>|> Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet

>|> and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted?

>If the top brass in the KGB saw a CNN story about all the juicy >stuff coming over the Internet link, they might be prompted to cut >it off, but I can almost guarantee you that someone at CNN (or at >least someone who knows someone) is reading this group. We'll >just have to rely on their sense of responsibility (this probably >means you shouldn't tell your local TV reporters: they are an >incredibly dim-witted and irresponsible breed).

>--

>Joe Buck

>jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck

For what it's worth, I think Joe's right. What do others think? Dhanesh Samarasan

dks@mit.edu

Xref: relcom soc.culture.soviet:868 talk.politics.soviet:3832 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!tellab5!osl

From: osl@tellabs.com (Oliver Lawrence)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Message-ID: <6994@tellab5.tellabs.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 02:13:50 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.123858.18454@hubcap.clemson.edu> <1991Aug20.164602.22309@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> <kb2q4fINN2bs@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> Sender: news@Tellabs.COM

Glen Ellyn, IL 60137

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohioнstate.edu!sample.eng.ohioнstate.edu!purdue!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!biow From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Talk to the general media?

Message-ID: <38412@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:10:52 GMT References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto) Lines: 16

My thinking is beginning to change on this subject (in contrast to some earlier e-mail). I can see no advantage to anyone to have mass media releasing information about the Demos/Relcom link.

In fact, I don't even see any convincing need for our media to have instant access to the information that is being conveyed. Rather, it is the Russian people who have the only legitimate "need to know" here. Unless this information can be transmitted back to Russia (minus any attribution or source info, of course), its dissemination in the mass media achieves nothing, and might get Oleg, Igor, & company shot.

On the other hand, our Russian friends do want the information disseminated, or they wouldn't be sending it out. Let's just be very careful with the identity of the source. There is NO REASON to tell any newsman what it is.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rice!hsdndev!huscнnews.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!gorokho1 From: gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: DO NOT POST GARBAGE HERE

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.224708.2700@husc3.harvard.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 02:47:07 GMT

References: <296E9D374A1F000902@OBERLIN.BITNET>

Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Lines: 14

Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu

IMPORTANT!

For now this newsgroup should carry only INFORMATION -- news updates.

If you have anything else to say, i.e. comments,

questions etc. you can post them on soc.human.rights or talk.politics.misc,

groups which are not being fed to Moscow.

Guys in Moscow should be getting HELP here and the only way

we can help them is to promptly distribute whatever they sent us and

sent them back what we learn from independent sources (CNN...). They probably want to know INFORMATION about our government's reaction on

the events ...

PLEASE POST ONLY INFORMATION!

Please no postings backing me, ONLY INFORMATION

Zhenya Gorokhosvky| gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cu nixf.cc.columbia.edu!cunixa.cc.columbia.edu!gmw1 From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: email in the ussr

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.034905.12398@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 03:49:05 GMT

Sender: usenet@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (The Network News)

Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu

Organization: Columbia University

Lines: 15

Originator: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu

Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu

With all the goings-on in the USSR, I'm curious.

Are there UUCP sites in the USSR proper? If so, how are the feeds arranged?

Over the regular telephone system there? I was always under the impression that computers don't exist in the russian private sector. I assume that any connections that exist are on the mainframe level?

If anyone knows the details about the technical facilities there, I'd be interested. Thanks.

Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ. "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings

gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu to be seriously considered as a means of

N2GPZ in ham radio circles communication. The device is inherently of

72355,1226 on CI$ no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!rwmke.mil.wi.us!jtk From: jtk@rwmke.mil.wi.us (Joseph T. Klein)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: PLEASE post your surface mail addresses

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.031939.12193@rwmke.mil.wi.us> Date: 21 Aug 91 03:19:39 GMT

References: <35178@usc.edu> <35986@shamash.cdc.com> Organization: RIVERWEST -- Milwaukee WI USA

Lines: 9

Joseph T. Klein

808 E. Wright Street Milwaukee, WI 53212

Life of a UNIX hack is... Joseph T.

Klein

/nev/dull jtk@rwmke.mil.wi.us

(414) 372-4454

RiverWest Milwaukee Public UNIX ** 808 E. Wright St., Milwaukee, WI 53212

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!att !linac!midway!kimbark!div3 From: div3@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Dwight Divine IV)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: CANCEL of REVOLT ARCHIVES

Summary: Bare Bones storage available

Keywords: archives, russian stuff, russian reports Message-ID: <1991Aug21.025227.20474@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:52:27 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.002508.1736@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>

Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress)

Organization: University of Chicago

Lines: 33

I can provide storage area for all the Russian posts. You can

send Russian eyewitness accounts, transcripts of radio reports, Russian news shows, etc. to:

archive@usite-next.uchicago.edu

We can only hold about 35 MB of information :( so PLEASE, Russian reports only (I think these eyewitness accounts will be a vital

thing to hang on to)! No translations! Of course, if one of the brave Russians posting these reports should post in English, that would be a worth addition...

I will *try* to snatch these things from the newsgroup if I see

them, but

I probably won't... If someone wants to take on the duty of

sending a copy of each Russian post, please do so, but be sure to inform the rest of us so that I don't get buried under multiple copies of the same information. On the other hand, don't feel that you shouldn't send something you're not sure someone else will be sending--I WILL go through and remove duplicates from the mail received (probably at least once a day).

Each time I do so, I'll post a list of the Russian records currently held (or the changes since the last time I posted)...I *will* keep these posts down to once or twice a day to save bandwidth.

This is the last post I will make until I begin to maintain the "archive".

Note this will NOT be an ftp site--though I will mail out a complete, tarred file containing all the articles in the archive at request.

Note also that I cannot maintain this archive for more than 5 or 6 days, though I may be able to pass on the flame, so to speak. Please respond via Email as far as possible to avoid posts to the group.

Thanks,

Dwight

Xref: relcom soc.culture.nordic:383 soc.culture.soviet:870 talk.politics.soviet:3838

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!gustav From: gustav@arp.anu.edu.au (Zdzislaw Meglicki)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Bye-bye Gorby. . .

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.041446.26867@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 21 Aug 91 04:14:46 GMT

References: <1991Aug19.171625.11587@crash.cts.com> <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au

Organization: Australian National University, Canberra

Lines: 14

Originator: gustav@diana.anu.edu.au

In article <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk>, kimcm@diku.dk (Kim Christian Madsen) writes: |> However, I can't help having a nagging feeling that this coup might be

|> masterminded by Gorby himself, in order to win popular support and be |> able to "win" his way back and purge the old hard-liners once and for |> all.

That, I must say, has crossed my mind too. But, alas, this is exactly what the phrase "wishful thinking" means.

Gustav Meglicki, gustav@arp.anu.edu.au,

Automated Reasoning Project - CISR, and Plasma Theory Group нRSPhysS,

The Australian National University, G.P.O. Box 4, Canberra, A.C.T., 2601,

Australia, fax: (Australia)-6-249-0747, tel: (Australia)-6-249-

0158

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohioнstate.edu!swrinde!emory!att!bellcore!walter!gizmo.bellcore.com!mo From: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Any chance people could just shut up and listen?? MessageнID: <1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.bellcore.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:18:07 GMT

Sender: news@walter.bellcore.com (All the News - Period) Reply-To:

mo@gizmo.bellcore.com ()

Organization: Center for Chaotic Repeatabilty

Lines: 11

Nntp-Posting-Host: gizmo

(munch)

Frankly, folks, the people in Moscow don't give a crap about your opinions right now. How about stop wasting everyone's bandwidth and just listen to history unfolding??

I think that's making enough noise for everyone.

-Mike O'Dell

I speak for me. Bellcore's on its own.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!att !bellcore!walter!gizmo!mo From: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Exposing details about connectivity

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.040729.14706@walter.bellcore.com>

Date: 21 Aug 91 04:07:29 GMT

References: <18914@venera.isi.edu>

Sender: news@walter.bellcore.com (All the News - Period) Reply-To: mo@bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell)

Organization: Center for Chaotic Repeatabilty

Lines: 22

Nntp-Posting-Host: gizmo

Stupid, stupid people!!! It is one thing to distribute the information which gets out. It is a very different, extremely grave matter for it to be attributed.

GET YOUR MIND IN GEAR!!! The issue here is not some bullshit about "THE NET" it is about people's LIVES!!! This is not some dream

in cyberspace! Revealing methods and sources GETS PEOPLE KILLED. I just read in another note that CNN has already blabbed. I hope for the sake of the people involved on all fronts that noone loses life or freedom as a result of that piece. Yes, the people sending out the information know the risks.

BUT THE BAD GUYS DON'T NEED ANY HELP!!!

PLEASE DO NOT ENDANGER THE PEOPLE THERE ANY FURTHER.

THIS IS NOT A TOPIC TO DISCUSS. THESE ARE REAL PEOPLE, NOT IDEAS. -Mike O'Dell

Bellcore? I'm doing well enough to speak for myself.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-

beaver!cornell!vax5.cit.cornell.edu!pksy From: pksy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.225437.6952@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 02:54:37 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> <1991Aug20.142750.21509@newshost.anu.edu.au> Distribution: talk Organization: CIT, Cornell University

Lines: 13

In article <1991Aug20.142750.21509@newshost.anu.edu.au>, cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) writes:

> In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu > (Paul Ward) writes:

>>So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and >>some stay with the committee?

> Nuclear weapons are of little use for international wars these days and

> of still less use in civil wars.

What if the hard liners find them already lost? Will they try this

last ditch effort?

References: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu>

Sender: usenet@novell.com (The Netnews Manager)

Organization: Novell, Inc.

Lines: 9

Nntp-Posting-Host: na

gary@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:

> I think "coup" is more appropriate, since those who are trying

to overthrow

> the government are within the government. A "putsch" is an

overthrow from

> *outside* the government, a la Hitler's failed Beer Hall

Putsch.

Agree. Also, I believe putsch is supposed to involve masses, ala revolution.

Tony

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!demos!news-server

From: postmaster@ussr.eu.net

Subject: Re: support

Message-ID: <AFYXjieK-L@kremvax.hq.demos.su> Lines: 51

Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su Reply-To: postmaster@ussr.eu.net Organization: DEMOS, Moscow, USSR References: <512DE237A0203D36@RUGR86.RUG.NL> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 00:17:22 +0300

>From fuug!RUGR86.RUG.NL!BREIMER Wed Aug 21 16:40:01 1991 >Received: by kremvax.hq.demos.su; Wed, 21 Aug 91 16:39:53 +0300 >Received: from hearnvax.nic.surfnet.nl by fuug.fi with SMTP id AA15351

> (5.65+/IDA-1.3.5 for tasha@hq.demos.su); Wed, 21 Aug 91 16:15:03 +0300 >Received: from rugr86 (rugr86.rug.nl) by HEARNVAX.nic.SURFnet.nl with

> PMDF#10216; Wed, 21 Aug 1991 15:17 MET

>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1991 15:06 MET

>From: BREIMER@RUGR86.RUG.NL

>Subject: support

>To: postmaster@ma-mii.lt.su, postmaster@lumii.lat.su, manager@tor.spb.su,

> peg@tommy.velham.su, wienpr@wienpr.home.demos.su, igor@iias.spb.su,

> adian@log.mian.su, iga@s514.ipmce.su, aleks@comcen.nsk.su,

> alekseev@de.mian.su, andr@ix.csc.mphti.su, and@kaija.spb.su,

> anosov@de.mian.su, avg@hq.demos.su, bada@gts.tula.su, apg@hq.demos.su,

> polina@hq.demos.su, asa@kiae.su, apr@ippi.msk.su, arefeva@qft.mian.su,

> arnold@top.mian.su, art@log.mian.su, rust@rust.home.demos.su,

> rs@ix.csc.mphti.su, bob@s514.ipmce.su, il@ix.csc.mphti.su,

> sergei@iias.spb.su, Abarg@ippi.msk.su, fox@kiae.su, oscar@tor.spb.su,

> tolik@lvk.cs.msu.su, bas@ix.csc.mphti.su, sb@ippi.msk.su, > aab@imi.spb.su, bekl@log.mian.su, const@ix.csc.mphti.su, > brook@brook.home.demos.su, nvb@imi.spb.su, bst@kiae.su,

> avb@bst.home.demos.su, bernoulli@prob.mian.su, baehrs@isi.itfs.nsk.su,

> bliudze@tor.spb.su, bob@bob.srcc.msu.su, andrew@ix.csc.mphti.su,

> bogomol@top.mian.su, bogoyavl@top.mian.su, lnb@slv.kiae.su,

> borovkov@prob.mian.su, bor@bor.home.demos.su, bmv@kiae.su >Message-Id: <512DE237A0203D36@RUGR86.RUG.NL>

>X-Envelope-To: apg@hq.demos.su, avg@hq.demos.su, deg@hq.demos.su, > dvv@hq.demos.su, guba@hq.demos.su, koch@hq.demos.su, korotaev@hq.demos.su,

> polina@hq.demos.su, tasha@hq.demos.su

>X-Vms-To: @RUSADRES.TXT

>Status: O

>Dear Sovjet-citizens,

>Herewith, I let you know, that the whole world supports you in your

>struggle for democracy and freedom. Pass this on to everybody. >History, has teached us that not the hard rulers, but the citizens >decide about their country. After Eastern Europe it's now your turn. >This is your chance. Take it. Don't give up and you will get where >struggling for: democracy.

Thank you, Neteherlandish Citizen.

The ugliest thing the whole world can do in minutes of crisis is to send megatons of greetings to freedom fighters thru the tiny uncontrolable channel. Have you ever heard a word "bottleneck"?

postmaster@ussr.eu.net

Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rice!hsdndev!huscнnews.harvard.edu!zariski!zeleny From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Any chance people could just shut up and listen?? Message-ID: <1991Aug21.142206.2714@husc3.harvard.edu>

Date: 21 Aug 91 18:22:05 GMT

References: <1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.bellcore.com> Organization: Harvard University Dept. of Mathematics

Lines: 29

Nntp-Posting-Host: zariski.harvard.edu

In article <1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.bellcore.com> mo@gizmo.bellcore.com () writes:

>(munch)

>Frankly, folks, the people in Moscow don't give a crap about >your opinions right now. How about stop wasting everyone's >bandwidth and just listen to history unfolding??

>I think that's making enough noise for everyone.

Right.

Now bugger off like a good boy.

> -Mike O'Dell

>I speak for me. Bellcore's on its own. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ /\/\ | ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?'' |

| (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938) |

| Mikhail Zeleny Harvard |

| 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 doesn't |

| Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 think |

| (617) 661-8151 so |

| email zeleny@math.harvard.edu or zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu |

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ \/\/ Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3848 soc.culture.soviet:872 Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!samsung!munnari.oz. au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet

Subject: Re: Irresolute Coup?

Message-ID: <1991Aug21.192714.2542@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 21 Aug 91 19:27:14 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au

Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 141

I guess the most interesting items here are live snippets from the Soviet Union, so I am passing on the following email received from there in response to the above item of mine in talk.politics.soviet.

Although the immediate crisis seems to be over I imagine that there would still be more pressing uses for the 2400 baud email link so I will not be replying by email and have deleted all lines indicating the email address from the header. (This has nothing to

the well meaning but naive pronouncements that have been made about "safety" - as though the relevant authorities do not monitor ALL telecommunications traffic from the Soviet Union!)

Frankly I find the comments largely incomprehensible, perhaps due to language and cultural differences (hence the cross-posting to soc.culture.soviet), perhaps due to the circumstances under which it was written - i.e. the reference to shooting being heard "(just a minute ago). Bye."

To save bandwidth, please email any comments to me and I will try to summarize if any light is shed.

Organization: Plasma Physics Division, Institute for General Physics Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 00:20:11 +0300 (MSD)

Of course you are right that democrats are not going to take the charge of the whole union. It seems clear from here that the very situation in soviet union emerged from the fact that the territiries do not have so much in common (in the sense of culture, morals or whatsoever) but how could this be decleared resolutely? Do you see that a hundreds of territorial problems would emerge at the same moment. And who would find the solution.In fact they did, they were going to sign the union treaty and then solve them by a hundreds of bilateral trade territory or whatever agreements. BUT! The clockwork of this red orange is that totalitarian power is based on distribution. Or better to say the eastern model of totalitarizm is based on the TZAR the giver distributing everything among slaves. So that's the point. They can live

ujntil they are distributing. And now I've heard they are already shooting (just a minute ago). Bye.

The email above was in response to the following comments of mine, repeated now as many have joined these discussions since I posted [and perhaps as a slight ego trip :-) - I am rather proud of having pointed to the irresolute character of the coup and the likelihood of it being defeated while the mass media and other comments here were assuming it to be a "fait accompli"]

>Yeltsin and the Russian Federation's rejection of the right wing coup seems >more resolute than I would have given the wimpy Russian "democrats" credit >for.

>But the coup itself seems strangely irresolute. As I write there are reports >of crowds being allowed to assemble in a mass demonstration against the >coup, surrounded by tanks and armoured personnel carriers to intimidate >them, but without force being used to disperse them.

>the state power itself - the KGB and military, primarily to stop the >unravelling of the nomenklatura's power (and timed

>prevent the signing of the new union treaty and to present the >forthcoming party central committee meeting with a fait accompli). >

>To succeed, the right wing MUST demonstrate that they REALLY ARE >prepared to rule by armed force - after all, they have NO other >source of "legitimacy".

>Without large scale bloodshed, one could only expect to ACCELERATE >the breakaway of union republics, AND the undermining of the right >wing's power bases.

>Perhaps we are about to see that bloodshed. If so the regime may >well survive at least for it's six months "emergency" period since

>neither military mutinies, nor popular armed revolts can be organized >quickly against military repression. But in the long run the right >wingers are doomed by the simple fact that they have no program.

>The economy will continue falling to bits, even faster, and promises >to raise wages and lower prices may help encourage apathy now but >will only highlight the regime's bankruptcy in a few months time >when the reverse has happened.

>If instead the standoff continues without major bloodshed, then >this coup could turn out to be just another "armed demonstration" >like the earlier coup mounted in the Baltic Republics, which >quietly faded away. It would have forced postponement of the >union treaty, and asserted the nomenklatura's continued importance, >without actually transferring full power, and with it, full >RESPONSIBILITY to the right wingers. (Why ANYBODY would want to

>be responsible for the Government of the Soviet Union at this >particular time remains as mysterious as why anybody wanted that >responsibility in Poland, but people do.)

>Certainly the new regime has made more than adequate preparations >for a compromise. Gorbachov is about as unpopular within the Soviet >Union as he is popular outside it. Yet instead of announcing that >he has been shot, or at least faces trial for dismantling the >Soviet empire in Eastern Europe, undermining the unity of the Soviet

>Union itself and wrecking the Soviet economy (with optional exposures >of being a CIA agent), they have merely announced that he is "unwell". >Obviously being "unwell" is a condition that could be merely temporary. >

>Likewise Yeltsin is permitted to issue manifestoes declaring the new >regime illegal, from his HQ in the Russian Federation Parliament >building right in the heart of Moscow, surrounded by his own tanks!

>A resolute coup would have gone beyond seizing the Radio and TV >stations to at least smashing through those tanks (a mere dozen or >so) and the crowds around them (a mere few thousand), to arrest >Yeltsin.

>Again, perhaps they will do so shortly, but it appears they are >holding out hope of a compromise.

>It is to be hoped that the democrats will go further than their >militant denunciations of the conspirators and actually proceed >to ARREST all supporters of the coup at a local level. Unfortunately >that would make THEM responsible for the Government of the Soviet >Union, which may not be what they really want. If they don't, and >just continue to denounce, and the right-wingers continue holding >out for a compromise, Soviet politics will become even more

>The black colonels program of suppressing all political parties >(including the Communist Party) and privatizing the economy >under martial law could conceivably work for a while (as it has >in China and Chile). But so far the sponsors of the coup have >not adopted that program, perhaps because they realize that it >too ultimately leads nowhere.

Path: relcom!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!smsc.sony. com!george From: george@smsc.sony.com (George Maestri)

Just a note to congratulate the brave Soviet people who helped overcome the bonds of totalitarianism. It looks as though your country is on the right course. If I could buy you all a beer, I would. 8^)