19_22_августа_1991_года

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!unixland!sharon

From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: U.S. ambassador to the USSR

Keywords: Strauss

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.123610.7039@unixland.natick.ma.us>

Date: 20 Aug 91 12:36:10 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.025853.2321@unixland.natick.ma.us> <1991Aug20.042858.12432@novell.com> Organization: The Think_Tank BBS & Public Access Unix

Lines: 21

In article <1991Aug20.042858.12432@novell.com> tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk) writes: >sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

>>I say sending a guy who doesn't know anything about the country into an

>>incredibly sensitive political situation like the one now unfolding in the >>Soviet Union is ASKING FOR TROUBLE. Who knows what he'll say without meaning >>to that will send some horribly wrong signals?

>Like what? Just curious.

Well, like hinting we will support a popular uprising when we won't (ask the Kurdish leaders about that). Or perhaps somehow dropping a signal that the U.S. wouldn't really mind the new leadership "consolidating" power over restive republics to restore "stability" (ask the Yugoslav federal leadership about it; perhaps even Saddam Hussein believed a similar thing based on the signals he believes he got from the U.S. ambassador before invading Kuwait).

Sharon

Sharon Machlis Gartenberg

Framingham, MA USA

email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us or uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!agate!bionet!ig!stetson.bitnet!STEEVES From: STEEVES@stetson.bitnet

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: ARREST WARRANT FOR YELTSIN

Message-ID: <TPS-L%91082007345914@INDYCMS.BITNET>

Date: 20 Aug 91 13:34:00 GMT

From: cyclist@hubcap.clemson.edu (Barry Johnson) Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Message-ID: <1991Aug20.123858.18454@hubcap.clemson.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 12:38:58 GMT

References: <125872@sgi.sgi.com> Organization: Clemson University Lines: 16

Here is mine:

Barry Johnson

843 Issaqueena Trl #112

Central, S.C. 29630 cyclist@hubcap.clemson.edu (803)654-6131

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Radio in the USSR - monitoring report from Finland

Message-ID: <3152@kielo.uta.fi>

Date: 20 Aug 91 09:23:25 GMT

Reply-To: tijoma@uta.fi (Jorma M{ntyl{)

Distribution: world

Organization: University of Tampere, Finland

Lines: 43

Finland offers an excellent place to monitor broadcasts from the USSR as

we are their closest neighbour.

Here is a short summary of what I heard yesterday here in Tampere (receiver: Icom IC-R71E + long-wire antenna):

-None of the new private stations could be heard; i.e. news about closing Radio Echo of Moscow seem to be correct. This station was heard daily here in Finland on 1206 KHz. It is possible that all private stations have been closed.

-In the Russian Federation regional broadcasts seemed to be ceased. Only one national programme was aired on the normal main channels 171, 198, 234, 549 and 612 KHz. Serious music was played and announcers read declarations of the new junta.

-Radio Leningrad 801, Radio Petrozavodsk 765 and Radio Kiev 4940 KHz also relayed this only national radio channel.

-The foreign service of Radio Moscow is under the controll of hard-liners.

-Lithuanian radio was not heard.

-Latvian radio was heard with normal programming on 576, 1350 and 1422 KHz. Today (Aug. 20) the Finnish news-agency reported that army troops have occupied Latvian radio last night. I believe that this evening we'll hear declarations of the junta also from the Latvian radio which has now changed ownership.

-Estonian radio was heard normally on 1035 and 5925 KHz with their programme in

Finnish at 1500 UTC. I wonder if the normal Finnish and Estonian services are heard any more today. It seems that the junta is going to take over all media in the USSR, and the Estonian radio & tv station is now the last station still under the controll of local authorities.

-No serious jamming noted. People in the USSR are able to hear Western radio stations. Finnish TV reported yesterday that people in Estonia and Vyborg region are watching Finnish TV as they don't believe in the declarations of the junta.

#Jorma Mantyla

#Univ. of Tampere

#Finland

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!kapa

From: kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari)

Subject: GORBATCHEV BACK IN MOSCOW? Message-ID: <1991Aug20.100534.1966@cc.tut.fi> Sender: news@cc.tut.fi (USENET News System) Organization: Tampere University of Technology

References: <1991Aug19.060038.8804@agate.berkeley.edu> <1991Aug19.094232.16862@agate.berkeley.edu> <1991Aug19.111656.17387@ousrvr.oulu.fi> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 10:05:34 GMT

Lines: 13

According to Finnish News Agencies, Gorbachev has been flown back to

kankaala@csc.fi, kankaala@finfun, fax+358-31-16 26 20, +358-0-457 2239 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!Dixie.Com!pjohn From: pjohn@Dixie.Com (Peter C. Johnson)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Coup Order-of-Battle

newsposts had a lot of info; I wonder if anybody is watching this.

I mention it because it looks like military units are mutinying.

CNN identified armor from the Taman Division, and two regiments

of Airborne troops (one from Ryazan' and another I didn't catch) as initially enforcing the coup.

Films last night showed Airborne troops (wearing striped _tel'nyashki_, flak vests, and driving BMD's) guarding the Russian Parliament. The implication was that they mutinied.

(One year ago, the Soviet press stated that the Ryazan' Regiment

had moved close to Moscow--a coup then looked ominous.)

This morning, Radio Australia reported (9.580 MHz, 1100 UT) that Gen-Maj Grachev had allied himself with Yel'tsin. Grachev is the

Boris Gromov, charismatic former C-in-C of Soviet Forces in

Afghanistan, also a Hero of the Soviet Union.

Any more info?

Pete Johnson

pjohn@dixie.com

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!pikes!cudnvr!s2surguine From: s2surguine@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: GORBACHEV

Message-ID: <1991Aug19.172335.469@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu>

Date: 19 Aug 91 17:16:35 GMT

Lines: 27

Here I sit all alone wondering what the Networks are saying about the

latest in the USSR. Unfortunately I have to work, which is depriving me of word on any late breaking developments.

A lot of scenarios have raced through my brain today. I do believe that Yeltsin, Shevardnadze(sp?), and others close to Mr. Gorbachev will now find themselves in jeopardy. But to what degree? Will these bastards succeed in closing up the USSR to the extent that was accomplished by China? Will

they resort to extreme measures or will they merely tighten up on the reigns a bit?

Civil War? Is this actually going to be possible? Given the current economic situation will the public anemically welcome the new regime

I would certainly welcome ANY NEWS FROM ANYONE OUT THERE. Viewpoints are also wlecome.

Thanks,

*********************************************************************************** You are the King today but there is a price you pay ...

Dr. Strangelove to Genady ? ********************************************************************************

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!pikes!cudnvr!s2surguine From: s2surguine@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: YELTSIN'S SHELTER

Message-ID: <1991Aug19.181439.470@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu>

Date: 19 Aug 91 18:07:39 GMT

Lines: 17

I Just heard that Yeltsin has Panzer's surrounding his offices just outside

the Russian Parliament. A crowd of thousands are also there trying to

prevent his capture. That's an interesting development.

Could this Coup fail?

*****************************************************************************

You are the King today but there is a price you pay

Dr. Strangelove S.A. Surguine

*****************************************************************************

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!vlsi!ward From: ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Nuclear Missiles

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 13:05:14 GMT

Organization: University of Waterloo

Lines: 10

So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and some stay with the committee?

Paul Ward

ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu

They will say, "As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them." For I will restore them to the land I gave to their forefathers.

Jeremiah 16:15

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!ulysses!grass From: grass@ulysses.att.com (Judith Grass)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: A message from Moscow

Message-ID: <15358@ulysses.att.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:03:45 GMT Sender: netnews@ulysses.att.com Reply-To: grass@ulysses.att.com

Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill

Lines: 35

I was forwarded a message from a friend in Moscow this morning.

I have translated it from the Russian, and here it is.

I am omitting names as printing them would endanger my friends... This message was originally sent to another friend that emigrated from the USSR a couple of months ago.

-- Judy Grass

15 florence Ave.

Morristown, NJ 07960

(201) 984-3430

--------- the text -------------

You snuck out of here just in time. Here is just plain old shit. So far no one has been crushed by a tank, thank God. If these dogs win, for certain they'll throw all of us in prison - we distributed the proclamation from Yelstyn, and the Moscow and Leningrad Soviets throughout the entire Soviet Union, together with forbidden

communiques from Interfax, which is also forbidden. By the way, I am fed up that this craziness will soon be extended to any newsgroup at all.

Read talk.politics.soviet - we'll send everything there at the same time.

Greetings from the underground

--------- In Russian --------------

Ty vpolne vovryemya otsyuda slinyal... Tut sploshnoy shit.

Poka nikogo tankom ne zadavilo i slava Bogu. Yesli eti sobaki pobyedyat nas sovershenno tochno vseh peresazhayut - my rassylali vozzvaniya ot Yel'tsina, Mos- i Lensoveta po vsemu Soyuzu vmeste s zapryeshyonnymi svodkemi zapryeshyonnogo Interfax-a. Vprochem ya nayeyus' eti pridurki nedolgo protyanut pri lyubom rasklade.

Chitay talk.politics.soviet - my zaodno posylayem vse i tuda.

Privet ot podpol'shikov.

Message-ID: <38354@mimsy.umd.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 13:53:13 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu

Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto) Lines: 32

In response to Albert Langer's observation that the coup is, thus far,

strangely absent of violence against Yel'tsin and the democrats:

1. Among the putsch planners, secrecy must have been of higher priority

than perfect coordination. In past communist crackdowns, the people

cracking down had no need for secrecy within the gov't. Thus we still see phone lines, INTERNET lines, etc. open.

2. No massive troop movements could be made in preparation. Thus, the only troops at hand in European USSR were European (Slavic) troops.

The putsch planners must be aware of the "lessons learned" from the revolt in Buda[pest] in 1956. In that revolt, Slavic troops proved ineffective against the citizens' uprising. They tended to either defect, or to be too hesitant to shoot the civilians. The Soviets saw several divisions disappear into the city with little effect.

3. We already have confirmed reports of anywhere from a few platoons to several divisions defecting to Yel'tsin's standard. My guess is that the putsch leaders will not attempt to actually use force against the democrats until they can transport Asian troops into the Moscow area. You would then first see a withdrawal of the Slavic units, and then

troops who are in Moscow to stay put, and defend the city against any "foreign" troops. (Whether I actually want to see this happen

is another matter. Civil wars in capital cities of nuclear superpowers

make me nervous.)

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!anas From: anas@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (George Anastassopoulos)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: E-mail address

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.141854.16335@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:18:54 GMT

Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il.

Lines: 9

You can use my email address:

anas@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

I will more than happy if I can help.

George Anastassopoulos Northwestern University Evanston, Illinois, USA Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!usenet From: jimmy@niksula.hut.fi (Jixiang Hao) Subject: Re: USSR readers-I will repost Message-ID: <1991Aug20.140056.558@nntp.hut.fi>

Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-Posting-Host: conan.cs.hut.fi

Reply-To: jimmy@niksula.hut.fi (Jixiang Hao) Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland References: <21229@rsiatl.Dixie.Com>

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1991 14:00:56 GMT

Lines: 31

In article <21229@rsiatl.Dixie.Com> pjohn@Dixie.Com (Peter C. Johnson) writes: >Readers in the USSR:

>If you are in the Soviet Union and wish to post anonymously during

>this crisis, I will re-post.

>Mail me at pjohn@dixie.com. I will then remove your name and

>electronic address and forward it back to this newsgroup.

Here is another address:

jimmy@niksula.hut.fi Jixiang Hao

Kilonkallio 10B 18

SF-02610 ESPOO 61

Finland

Tel: 35804513738 (10 - 17 GMT only)

Fax: 35804513826

I am a chinese. I was in china in 1989.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!jgcallis From: jgcallis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (joseph gle callis)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.143919.4294@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:39:19 GMT

References: <35158@usc.edu>

Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

Lines: 8

Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

Joe Callis

720 College Mall Rd. Apt. K8

Bloomington, IN 47401

home phone (812) 336-2915

work phone (812) 855-1339 work fax (812) 855-2862

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851

From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.142750.21509@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:27:50 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu>

Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au

Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia.

Lines: 8

In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu

(Paul Ward) writes:

>So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and

>some stay with the committee?

Nuclear weapons are of little use for international wars these days and

of still less use in civil wars.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sample.eng.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!biow From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles

Message-ID: <38356@mimsy.umd.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:26:46 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu>

Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu

Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto)

Lines: 19

In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: >So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and

>some stay with the committee?

All Soviet warheads, like most of ours, require digital codes (keys)

Nntp-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov

In article <35178@usc.edu>, kriz@skat.usc.edu (KRIZ) writes...

>Folks,

>If you are posting your addresses on tps or scs as part of the >effort to offer the Soviet readership alternatives to getting >info out of the country ... PLEASE post your surface addresses. >E-mail addresses are good only if the e-mail links remain >online. These may go down at some point ... Surface mail >addresses will still be good months from now.

>dennis

>kriz@skat.usc.edu

>Dennis Kriz

>3175 S. Hoover # 523

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Re: PLEASE post your surface mail addresses Summary: Surface Mail Addresses

Message-ID: <35986@shamash.cdc.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 13:42:37 GMT References: <35178@usc.edu>

Sender: usenet@shamash.cdc.com

Reply-To: jrd@mips.COM (john r douglas x6668) Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet

Organization: CDC Arden Hills, MN

Lines: 18

Add my name and address to the list also:

John Douglas

19164-147th St. NW

Elk River, MN 55330 USA

Also available RTTY and AMTOR as N0ISL

Stay well my friends... Many people care... *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* * * * * John Douglas * This space left blank * * Arden Hills, MN * except for line above * * Control Data Corp. * " " " " * * * " " " " * *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*

* What this country needs is one more lawyer!! *

*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!eagle!venus.lerc.nasa.gov!lvkelly From: lvkelly@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Kelly Carney)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: The coup, information, and coverage

Get Real. There is no way that the US could have averted with some wheat and some experts. This was a military coup performed because because they didn't want to lose power. There is nothing the United States could have done. I take by your coment on the military budget that you don't want us to be the world's policeman, but thinking that we can solve, or prevent, the world's problems is what causes this desire.

>I have also heard the usual criticism of CIA not warning us. Look folks >for years, the Bush and Reagan administrations valued fancy sat. photos >over human agents. This hasn't changed THAT much since Iraq. And lest >people forget, we DID have intel. on Iraq, but the admin. chose to >disbelieve it for reasons that have yet to be sorted out. Could the same >thing have happened again?

What the hell would we have done anyway?

Called up Gorby and said "better watch your ass tomorrow"?

I really think the leaders of the coup probably tried not to let

anyone know the date in advance. They probably didn't even tell

Gorby. Get Real.

Anyone who was surprised by the coup has had their head in the sand.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Coup Order-of-Battle

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.144325.21638@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:43:25 GMT

References: <21244@rsiatl.Dixie.Com>

Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au

Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 32

In article <21244@rsiatl.Dixie.Com> pjohn@Dixie.Com (Peter C. Johnson) writes:

>Is anybody tracking Coup order-of-battle? The Tienanmien incident

>newsposts had a lot of info; I wonder if anybody is watching this. >

>I mention it because it looks like military units are mutinying.

The dozen or so tanks defending Yeltsin are certainly evidence that some military units are remaining loyal to their oaths in defence of the Soviet Constitution and rejecting the illegal overthrow of their

Commander in Chief, the Soviet President (or "mutinying" as you put it :-)

There may well be many others.

But be careful of relying on journalistic speculation like the "Tien an men incident newsposts".

As I recall western journalists were breathlessly interpreting the direction that tank gun barrels were pointing and the arm bands worn by different troops as signs that some troops were rebelling against the Teng Hsiao-ping regime, simply because they WISHED that were so.

In fact the one certainty about armed forces splitting is that they will announce their allegiances clearly by flying appropriate flags. The first priority of each side MUST be to proclaim as loudly and clearly as possible "we are the authorities, rally to us". There will be no ambiguity about

the position of any military units that DO change sides (as indeed there is no ambiguity about the position of the tanks defending Yeltsin).

What is more interesting, and difficult to analyse, is not the "order

of battle" on either side, but the units that remain passive due to "unreliability".

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!news From: walsh@darwin.cc.nd.edu (Tim Walsh)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Message-ID: <1991Aug20.150116.18107@news.nd.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 15:01:16 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.123858.18454@hubcap.clemson.edu>

Sender: news@news.nd.edu (USENET News System)

South Bend, Indiana 46628

(219) 271-1706

aeroguy@ndcvx.cc.nd.edu

walsh@darwin.cc.nd.edu

I can forward all information to dept. of Soviet studies and the local media.

good luck -----------------------------------------------------------------Timothy E. Walsh aeroguy@ndcvx.cc.nd.edu University of Notre Dame walsh@darwin.cc.nd.edu

Dept. of Aerospace/Mech. Engineering

Notre Dame, IN 46556

Q: How many software engineers does A: It can't be done;

it take to screw in a lightbulb? it's a hardware problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851

From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Irresolute Coup?

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.151108.21838@newshost.anu.edu.au>

Date: 20 Aug 91 15:11:08 GMT

References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au> <38354@mimsy.umd.edu>

Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au

Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 50

In article <38354@mimsy.umd.edu> biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) writes:

>In response to Albert Langer's observation that the coup is, thus far,

>strangely absent of violence against Yel'tsin and the democrats:

>1. Among the putsch planners, secrecy must have been of higher priority

>than perfect coordination. In past communist crackdowns, the people

stations. This is not a matter of imperfect coordination but deliberate omission. (BTW, I prefer to use the terminology adopted by demonstrators against the coup in the Soviet Union, who refer to the coup as "fascist" rather than "communist").

>2. No massive troop movements could be made in preparation. [...]

Whatever troops are available, the highest priority must be to

suppress the center of opposition.

>3. We already have confirmed reports of anywhere from a few platoons >to several divisions defecting to Yel'tsin's standard. My guess is that >the putsch leaders will not attempt to actually use force against the >democrats until they can transport Asian troops into the Moscow area. >You would then first see a withdrawal of the Slavic units, and then >the entry of troops who speak only non-Indo-European languages.

>Without the ability to speak to the troops, the Muscovites will be unable >to challenge their loyalty.

Perhaps that may explain the delay in larger scale repression, but lack

of reliable troops would make it all the MORE urgent to capture the opposition HQ.

>If I am right, then it is essential for Yel'tsin to convince the >troops who are in Moscow to stay put, and defend the city against >any "foreign" troops. (Whether I actually want to see this happen

>is another matter. Civil wars in capital cities of nuclear superpowers >make me nervous.)

Any troops under Yeltsin's command should, along with the civilian population, be arresting supporters of the coup in Moscow or, if they are unable to do so, then they should be withdrawing to some territory where they ARE able to exert their own authority. Competing authorities can regroup at least temporarily in different parts of the same country but they can only coexist in the same city in odd situations like

the "dual power" period in 1917 where the Soviets had NOT yet resolved on taking "all power" to themselves.

Something strange is going on.

Message-ID: <boylanr.682701260@silver>

Date: 20 Aug 91 15:14:20 GMT

Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)

Organization: Indiana University

Lines: 20

Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

I want to underline something an earlier poster said: those behind the coup may simply be waiting to bring in troops from outside the region, troops of a different ethnic background from most Muscovites, or `special' troops with strong ideological loyalty to the conservatives behind the coup. This was the pattern in China, and also in the military crackdown in Poland in the early 80's. The democratic forces need to act quickly to convert the troops in the cities to the democratic cause.

In most revolutions, the loyalty of the troops is crucial. (I am a sociologist and make this observation based on the sociology of revolutions.) Even where people power has been effective recently, the troops must at least be unwilling to use force against the protesters.

The timidity of the conservatives, and interviews with some of the

troops in Moscow, suggests that the troops currently in Moscow can not be counted on to do the bidding of the new regime. Very encouraging.

My best wishes, and hopes, are with the people of the Soviet Union.

Xref: relcom soc.culture.soviet:822 talk.politics.soviet:3654 soc.rights.human:1227

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!mcnc!taco!ncsuvm!netoprbl From: NETOPRBL@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Christopher Brian Lane)

References: <28B0B287.7602@ics.uci.edu>

Organization: North Carolina State University Computing Center

Lines: 9

okay why not:

North Carolina State University Computing Center

Attention: Christopher Brian Lane

PO Box 7109

Raleigh, NC USA 27695-7109

Netoprbl@ncsuvm.edu

Xref: relcom soc.culture.soviet:823 talk.politics.soviet:3655 soc.rights.human:1228

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!mcnc!taco!ncsuvm!netoprbl From: NETOPRBL@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Christopher Brian Lane)

References: <28B0B287.7602@ics.uci.edu>

Organization: North Carolina State University Computing Center

Lines: 5

BTW, I speak English and German....but can always track down a prof who could

translate russian.

E-mail:netoprbl@ncsuvm.edu

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!ucla-cs!ucla-se!mott!marn From: marn@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Jure Marn)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Ouster of Gorbachev

Message-ID: <3658@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>

Date: 20 Aug 91 15:31:10 GMT

References: <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> <ATAYLOR.91Aug19113404@karnaugh.nmsu.edu>

Sender: news@SEAS.UCLA.EDU

Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles

Lines: 16

>In article <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: >

>>Another question: who are these troops manning the tanks rolling into

Message-ID: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:36:24 GMT Sender: news@ncar.ucar.edu

Reply-To: strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)

Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO

Lines: 8

Disclaimer: Few others have these opinions!

I think "coup" is more appropriate, since those who are trying to overthrow

the government are within the government. A "putsch" is an overthrow from

*outside* the government, a la Hitler's failed Beer Hall Putsch.

Gary Strand When buying and selling are controlled by

legislation, the first things to be bought strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu and sold are legislators. -- P.J. O'Rourke

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!dvk

From: dvk@sei.cmu.edu (Daniel Klein)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Physical addresses Message-ID: <30268@as0c.sei.cmu.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:44:15 GMT

Sender: netnews@sei.cmu.edu

Organization: CMU Software Engineering Institute

Lines: 12

To all of my friends from SUUG still in the Soviet Union, if I can help:

Daniel Klein

5606 Northumberland

Pittsburgh, PA 15217

-- ============ -- =========== -- =========== -- =========== -- =========== -"The only thing that separates us from the animals is superstition and mindless rituals" (Latke) Daniel Klein CMU-SEI +1 412/268-7791

dvk@sei.cmu.edu

Message-ID: <38369@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:42:40 GMT Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu

Reply-To: ktaylor@umiacs.umd.edu (Kenneth Taylor)

Distribution: talk.politics.soviet; talk.politics.misc; soc.culture.soviet; misc.headlines Organization: UMIACS, Univ. of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

Lines: 11

Just heard (11:30 EDT) report over ABC radio that said that one of Yeltsin's

people reported to ABC that an attack on the Russian Parliment Building

Xref: relcom relcom.politics:62 talk.politics.soviet:3660 Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet

Path: relcom!demos!news-server

From: avg@moria.demos.su (Vadim Antonov)

Subject: Глушилки

Message-ID: <AB0wOiear0@moria.demos.su>

Lines: 11

Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su

Reply-To: avg@moria.demos.su

Organization: The Home of Cats

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 00:49:52 +0300

В Москве глушатся практически все радиопередачи. Длинные волны, на которых вещало "РАДИО М" заглушены намертво, в остальных диапазонах не глушатся только официозные радостанции. Впрочем,

опыт застойных времен не прошел даром - наши тренированные уши вполне разбирают слова BBS (Лондон) и Голоса Америки (Вашингтон).

Спасибо, ребята!

Не мог бы кто-нибудь из более спокойных регионов рассылать

обзоры текущих радиопередач (cовковых не надо)?

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!bywater!arnor!news

From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Ouster of Gorbachev

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.132842.12891@watson.ibm.com>

Date: 20 Aug 91 13:28:42 GMT

Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster)

Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Lines: 21

Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg

Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM

In <1991Aug19.151524.171@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:

> In <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: > > ...

> > A major question now, of course, is what will happen to Boris Yeltsin.

> > ...

> Major questions should be what will happen to the peace on our dearest

> planet, the unfortunate break-away republics, Eastern Europe, all the

> good peoples of the SU, and even you and me...

> Oleg Vishnepolsky

Boris Yeltsin's fate is indeed a major question. I was overly pessimistic yesterday and did not take into account possibility that the coup is not a done deal yet. If it was, Yeltsin's fate would be a lot less important. There is a lot of indications to the contrary.

Experts seem to be all bullish on Yeltsin, and on the coup's failure. Some give the coup 3 months to failure, some 3 days.

Oleg Vishnepolsky

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!bywater!arnor!news

From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: What about exit visas ?

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.141145.15322@watson.ibm.com>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:11:45 GMT

Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster)

Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM

In <1991Aug19.150523.29435@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes: > A close relative of mine is supposed to leave SU in 3 weeks.

> Needless to say, I am terribly worried for him.

> Oleg Vishnepolsky

There was a plane yesterday from Moscow to Kennedy airport (New York)

carrying immigrants and tourists.

Oleg Vishnepolsky

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!bywater!arnor!news

From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: what else?

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.144007.15910@watson.ibm.com>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:40:07 GMT

Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster)

Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Lines: 26

Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg

Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM

In <1991Aug20.012106.18615@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.MMS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark Skubik) writes: > Well....

> I guess that the Moscow Spring is over. Perhaps in the next few

> days we shall be seeing Soviet tanks crushing the bodies of the

> people. As I have said before on this net, the Status quo soviets

> will hold on to power until the last thread of civilized behavior is > broken. These guys are old enough to remember the deaths of

> millions upon millions in the building of their wonderful utopia.

> Why should anyone be surprised that this cornered old beast

> is striking out to defend itself?

> ...

There is hope this time that the coup does not have guts to spill

the Russian blood. If they do, they all will be signing their death penalties. And this gray croud of Stalists seems to be very cautious and unsure of themselves. Kasparov said yesterday that the coup is very useful in the sense of destroying last credibility the hardliners had in eyes of the people. And when these clowns are gone, a new democratic Russia may emerge. An MVD general was reported yesterday pledging to Yeltsin not to spill Russian blood.

All in all, the coup is losing its momentum and time. The more time

passes with Yeltsin still in the running, the more likely that the coup will fail within a few days.

Oleg

Xref: relcom soc.culture.soviet:824 talk.politics.soviet:3664 soc.rights.human:1229 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!gvw

From: gvw@castle.ed.ac.uk (Greg Wilson)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.rights.human

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses

Message-ID: <12431@castle.ed.ac.uk>

Date: 20 Aug 91 08:55:17 GMT

References: <28B0B287.7602@ics.uci.edu>

Organization: Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre

Lines: 22

In article <28B0B287.7602@ics.uci.edu> ddoherty@ics.uci.edu (Donald Doherty) writes: >

>In article <125872@sgi.sgi.com> roberts@nimrod.wpd.sgi.com (roberts) writes:

>>If there is anything at all that I can do to help keep accurate

>>information flowing into or out of the USSR please let me know.

>>I can repost articles, send faxes, forward Western news reports

>>etc. If necessary I could try and arrange to set up a private message >>repository or UUCP link.

Me too:

Greg Wilson

Room 3405

Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre

Scotland

Tel. +44 31 650 5023 Fax. +44 31 662 4712 gvw@uk.ac.ed.castle

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!dcs.ed.ac.uk!cc From: cc@cs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe

Subject: Re: Emigration from Eastern Europe (to South Africa) Message-ID: <16193@gruinard.dcs.ed.ac.uk>

Date: 15 Aug 91 13:49:48 GMT

References: <42917@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>

Sender: nnews@dcs.ed.ac.uk

Reply-To: cc@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)

Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

Lines: 11

In article <42917@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> tedrick@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes: >With all the talk of people wanting to leave the past and present

>communist countries, and no place in Western Europe to put them all >(witness Albanians trying to get into Italy, and being forced back >out), might not South Africa be a possible destination?

There was something in the news about this a few months ago - apparently many people from Poland, Bulgaria, and other Eastern European countries are queueing up to get into South Africa.

-- Chris. cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!dcs.ed.ac.uk!hans

From: hans@cs.ed.ac.uk (Hans Huttel)

Sender: nnews@dcs.ed.ac.uk

Reply-To: hans@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Hans Huttel)

Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U Lines: 24

I woke up this morning to the alarming news that Gorbachev had been

ousted in a coup and replaced by the vice president whose name I

cannot spell. Oh no... Mikhail Sergevich certainly wasn't perfect but the guys that seem to be in control now are a million times worse. His `resignation due to poor health' is a blast from the past and sounds especially bizarre given that Gorbachev is not exactly a Chernenko.

Now I hear that Shevardnadze and Yakovlev call for support for Yeltsin. What can/should the opposition do now ? And how about the outside world ? (Maybe we should actually make enquiries about his health and ask to have foreign deputations visit him in hospital or whereever he is supposed to be - that could certainly expose that silly lie.)

Have the KGB/military types who instigated the coup got widespread

support at all ?

Hans H\"{u}ttel, Office 1603 JANET: hans@uk.ac.ed.dcs Lab. for Foundations of Comp. Sci. UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!dcs!hans

JCMB, University of Edinburgh ARPA: hans%dcs.ed.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, SCOTLAND This is _not_ a clever quote from a song.

Xref: relcom soc.culture.nordic:382 soc.culture.soviet:825 talk.politics.soviet:3667 Path: relcom!demos!fuug!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!diku!kimcm

From: kimcm@diku.dk (Kim Christian Madsen)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Bye-bye Gorby. . .

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk>

Date: 20 Aug 91 14:30:12 GMT

References: <1991Aug19.171625.11587@crash.cts.com>

Sender: kimcm@rimfaxe.diku.dk

Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

Lines: 57

lyled@pnet01.cts.com (Lyle Davis) writes:

> Just opened up the morning paper and saw the headlines. . ."Gorbachev

>Overthrown!!"

> It appears, however, that Gorbachev was much more popular here in

>American than in Russia. I had doubts whether he could survive but hoped he >would.

> What is the feeling in the Scandinavian countries? You're closer than

>we are. Had the Scandinavians generally supported Gorby? Do they feel a >sense of loss now that he is gone?

It certainly seems like Gorby is much more popular in the west than at

home, however I hope that the people of USSR will dare to defy the

regime installed by the coup d'etat, realizing that as the british PM John Major said "...There is constitutional ways of removing the Soviet president..." and if some kind of change in the head of the Soviet state is needed -- a coup is not the right way of solving things.

However, I can't help having a nagging feeling that this coup might be masterminded by Gorby himself, in order to win popular support and be able to "win" his way back and purge the old hard-liners once and for all. This might sound far-fetched but look at the following "facts":

Gorby put a lot of prestige into getting the VP Yanajev elected -- A gray and dull man who was always following orders.

The coup d'etat was carried out on a monday, former KGB people tells the standard KGB way of making coups are to place them at fridays, where people are out of the way and they have the weekend to consolidate themselves in power.

The coup-makers aren't making decissive moves, actually it seems like they have no plan at all.

Why state health reasons "high-blood-pressure & back-ache" as reasons for Gorby's resignation, why not "cardiac arrest" or even "lead poisoning" or something equally deadly to get him out of the way for good!

Why is Boris Yeltsin still on the loose, he is far more dangerous to the hard-liners, since he has a broad popular support base

in the Russian people and even in the Red Army, Interior

Forces, KGB, etc.

The actions of the coup-makers are as though they didn't even

think the coup was going to be a success....

Well, it might be wishful thinking, but it would be a marvelous stunt,

and stranger things have been seen in the "Soviet Power Enigma".

Regards,

Kim Chr. Madsen

Xref: relcom talk.politics.soviet:3668 soc.culture.soviet:828

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ncar!midway!quads!rjh1 From: rjh1@quads.uchicago.edu (robert j hinde)

how the recent Soviet coup has affected the nascent lesbian/ gay/bisexual liberation movement in the Soviet Union.

Just two or three weeks ago, approximately 20,000 people marched through the streets of Moscow demanding equal rights for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. This was one of the first gay rights marches ever held in the USSR. Several journalists from gay and lesbian newspapers in the US were at the march.

One of the central goals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual activists in the Soviet Union is to abolish Article 121.1

of the Soviet penal code, which makes sexual activity between two men punishable by five years in a labor camp. This article has been used not only to punish sexuallyactive gay men, but also to intimidate and oppress political dissidents. I imagine that the Emergency Committee will

not look kindly on political activity aimed at repealing this law.

The gay and lesbian movement in the Baltic republics was also fairly strong by Eastern European standards. In May 1990, two Estonian historians organized the Soviet Union's first international conference on homosexuality and the gay movement. This meeting attracted 150 researchers and activists from East and West Europe, the US, and the USSR. Presumably the Emergency Committee's crackdown on the Baltic republics can have only negative effects on the gay and lesbian movement there.

If anyone can provide me with some information, I can pass it on to gay and lesbian newspapers in the US. I can be contacted...

by electronic mail: RJH1@midway.uchicago.edu

by fax: 312-702-0805

by surface mail: Robert Hinde

5437 S. Harper #2

Chicago, IL 60615-5523 USA

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!midway!kimbark!div3 From: div3@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Dwight Divine IV)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: COMMUNISM

Summary: When Communism can work

Keywords: Goal, Community, Orientation, Communism

Message-ID: <1991Aug20.151940.28322@midway.uchicago.edu>

Date: 20 Aug 91 15:19:40 GMT

References: <9108150847.AA09102@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu>

Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress)

Organization: University of Chicago

Lines: 58

Please excuse any rough edges, this is my first post to this group.

I am not including the previous articles (which discussed working models of communism, including Shaker communities and certain family units), because my post does not deal directly with their statements but, rather, with the underlying reasons why communism succeeds in certain communities.

NOTE: communism of X, in this article, will be defined as the practice of sharing X among all members of the community or group (in Marx's words "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

I am not a social scientist, or an historian, so these are just speculations (as opposed to speculations backed by a PhD and much research :) )...

It seems to me that communism succeeds exactly where the participants, both individually and as a group, care far more about a particular GOAL and about each other than they do about personal possession of the commodities to be shared. For example:

o A communism of goods (material objects) could exist in a monastary [monks are united by a common goal of religious life and denial of material comforts, and by common membership in a brotherhood] or

a research lab (with respect to the computing facilities--so long as everyone thought they were getting sufficient access to the facilities) [researchers are united by a common goal of solving certain problems, and by common membership in the research group].

o A communism of results, honors, or credits would NOT likely exist in the research group above (that is, it is likely the researchers would demand individual credit to any who had contributed) because the goal of the group is to produce results.

Other examples of groups which practice (largely) communism of groups are: the military (where personal possessions may be restricted to what the troops can carry on their backs or in their vehicles) [again, a common goal and unity, and again, a place where communism of honors would be unlikely

to succeed], groups having little or no material wealth (such as the Bushmen of the Kalahari) [where survival demands communism or where there just aren't any goods valuable enough to spur discord], or among family members, or (in a *limited* sense) among the very rich, who may not mind sharing or giving away very valuable commodities with friends and acquaintences.

In each case, I think, we can see that communism succeeds where the participants either don't really care about the things being shared,

care more about the other participants than about the things, must

share to survive, or care more about some set of ethics or common goal than about the things shared.

This may help to explain why communism fails among large groups (like countries). Such groups are likely to be *very* heterogeneous with respect to goals, feelings towards other members, and feelings about the goods or items to be shared. This will generally cause the system to

break down (since you will have the classic problems of free riders, cheaters,

and thieves).

Of course this is all just speculation, but I'd be interested in hearing what

others have to say.

Dwight Divine IV

The man with no .sig...

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!dks From: dks@athena.mit.edu (Dhanesh K Samarasan)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses

Fax: 617.253.2660

Internet: dks@mit.edu

Peace.

Path: relcom!demos!fuug!mcsun!corton!sophia!sibelius.inria.fr!weigl From: weigl@sibelius.inria.fr (Konrad Weigl)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet

Subject: Re: We Must Rescue Gorbachev !!!

Message-ID: <1728@sophia.inria.fr>

Date: 20 Aug 91 15:59:28 GMT

References: <9108200515.AA00703@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu>

Sender: news@sophia.inria.fr

Organization: INRIA, Sophia-Antipolis (Fr)

Lines: 30

In article <9108200515.AA00703@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ai260@cleveland.freenet.edu ("J. Fisher") writes: >

> Oleg Vishnepolsky:

> > Yes, there is. Support peace through strength. Write your

> > congressman that you believe that US needs military strength

> > more than ever.

> No thank you.

> Military strength cannot and will never be a substitute for

> intelligence, understanding, and diplomacy. Especially in these

> days it should be abundantly apparent that what we all need is

> LESS military strength.

Who is talking about substitute?

Obviously both are needed.

Military strength just enables you to bargain from a strong position: You don't have to bow to a dictatorship with a strong army;

you might if you don't have it, see Tien-an-men.

Konrad Weigl Tel. (France) 93 65 78 63 Projet Pastis Fax (France) 93 65 78 58 INRIA-Sophia Antipolis email Weigl@sophia.inria.fr